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Old 10-16-2007, 08:47 AM   #1
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Default Why to take does....and does it affect buck sightings?

I had a forum member PM me and ask me some questions regarding this....and "I" thought it might be of interest to some others in a similar situation to me. If it's not interesting.....don't read it!

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Quote:
I know that i've never introduced myself to you but i think we're alike in many ways.It seems that you hunt every chance you get....as do I (24 hunts after tonight and it'll be 25th in the morning). It also seems that you will take a doe at any goodshot opportunity, which is not a bad thing at all. I'm not writing this to you to **** at you but to ask your opinion. I've arrowed 3 does so far this year and loved every second in the stand so far. Here we go-

But one of my dads friend brought this to my attention and I think that he may have a good point and i can see where he is coming from. He will shoot does but not until the end of the season b/c his belief is that your killing your chances on a good buck w/out the does in the area come rut time. He has many many big deer under his belt. 7 -150's 2- 160's and 3-170's and he will not kill a doe until the rut is over or until he has taken his buck for the year.
What"s his population like? What"s his buck:doe ratio like? He may be doing just fine with this approach. I can"t do that. I need to take more than a couple out. If I wait".it"ll never happen".and WHILE I wait".the does are eating food that could be utilized by other deer, later in the year. They also stand a darned good chance of being bred. They also stand a good chance of not being killed, later. If I take a doe out of the herd in Sept"..she"s not eating food"..she"s not going to be coming into estrous".and she certainly isn"t going to reproduce. How many deer have I potentially taken out of the herd by doing this? How many have I helped?

Quote:
I personally hunt area's with way way too many does but some very big deer as well. I see a shooter buck (130 and up for me) probably 1 out of 3-4 sits on stand. I do not hesitate to shoot a doe(unless there is a shooter buck in sight) but i was wondering the amount of bucks that you see when the rut comes around? And do you think that if you held off on the does that you would see more bucks?
Yes. I"d likely see a few more bucks EARLY"..but I don"t think the big picture is being looked at, overall. If a doe comes into estrous".it"s highly likely "A" buck is going to breed her. When there"s little competition"..there"s more of a likelihood that the dominant buck(s) aren"t going to be able to handle the workload. In a perfect world".the doe prances her would-be suitor around the woods"for the sole purpose of wanting the dominant buck to see her, ready".and get this juvenile off her butt. Natural selection at its" finest in the deer woods. The more does the dominant bucks have to breed"..the less healthy they are (some die during this process".or shortly thereafter). Thinning does to a more manageable population creates competition for the ones left. It also means there are less does, overall, to be bred"..which means that we should see healthier bucks. What I risk at the beginning of the season (possible fewer buck sightings)""I hope to reap rewards from near the end.

I saw 7 buck sightings, last year".through 10/28. I have exactly seven, this year, to date. From 10/28 through the end of the season, last year, I had 37 more sightings. I hope it is better, this year, but I"d take that, again.

I hope this answers your questions"..and understand I"m still learning. I"ve had some good teachers, though"..the guys in the forum.



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Old 10-16-2007, 09:15 AM   #2
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Default RE: Why to take does....and does it affect buck sightings?

I think this issue, while as a whole has merit, but to an individual not so much difference.

So many factors come into play that I don"t think a definitive answer can be made. The guy in the example has obvious success, but I doubt much if any of it can be attributed to him not shooting does until after he"s shot a buck"..UNLESS the area available for him to hunt does not allow for him to shoot a deer without causing great impact to the area.

On an individual basis I don"t feel enough does can be taken to affect a bucks travel patterns unless the act of taking those does, dragging etc spooks the resident big bucks that live there.

However, on a wide scale basis, if you have say a 20 doe per sq mile population on September 1st but by Oct 20th, there"s only 12 per sq mile, and your buck population has stayed the same, you"ll probably get a good bit more cruising activity and competition.

One thing I do know is that at least regarding young bucks, if there"s an old doe gut pile, even if its been gone for weeks, a buck passing nearby will come over and check it out if he smells it.
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Old 10-16-2007, 09:30 AM   #3
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Default RE: Why to take does....and does it affect buck sightings?

Quote:
I know that i've never introduced myself to you but i think we're alike in many ways.It seems that you hunt every chance you get....as do I (24 hunts after tonight and it'll be 25th in the morning). It also seems that you will take a doe at any goodshot opportunity, which is not a bad thing at all. I'm not writing this to you to **** at you but to ask your opinion. I've arrowed 3 does so far this year and loved every second in the stand so far. Here we go-

But one of my dads friend brought this to my attention and I think that he may have a good point and i can see where he is coming from. He will shoot does but not until the end of the season b/c his belief is that your killing your chances on a good buck w/out the does in the area come rut time. He has many many big deer under his belt. 7 -150's 2- 160's and 3-170's and he will not kill a doe until the rut is over or until he has taken his buck for the year.
I understand where he's coming from but his theory behind it is a little flawed. I suppose one, he doesn't want to contaminate his core area and two, he thinks that one or two does he passes on with his tags are the doe that will bring that buck by him. The odds against that are probably flawed and like Jeff, I question what the buck to doe ratio is in the area. I agree, if the does are relatively equal to the bucks, I'd have a hard time taking doe prerut or rut, similiar to my area, but in an over populated doe to buck area, I'd take does as quickly as possible allowing the woods to resume it's normal activity come rut. Plenty'O doe to breed.

Quote:
What"s his population like? What"s his buck:doe ratio like? He may be doing just fine with this approach. I can"t do that. I need to take more than a couple out. If I wait".it"ll never happen".and WHILE I wait".the does are eating food that could be utilized by other deer, later in the year. They also stand a darned good chance of being bred. They also stand a good chance of not being killed, later. If I take a doe out of the herd in Sept"..she"s not eating food"..she"s not going to be coming into estrous".and she certainly isn"t going to reproduce. How many deer have I potentially taken out of the herd by doing this? How many have I helped?
I agree with this Jeff not to mention you taking early does actually helps your over buck herd's health. They are not running themselves ragged to breed the does you took out and can concentrate on the remaining doe. Bucks can kill themselves breeding does, too many does and their overhealth can greatly be diminished. A healthy herd will ensure that does will be bred and the bucks will be healthy enough afterward. Many mature bucks can meet their demise following a rough rut.

Quote:
I personally hunt area's with way way too many does but some very big deer as well. I see a shooter buck (130 and up for me) probably 1 out of 3-4 sits on stand. I do not hesitate to shoot a doe(unless there is a shooter buck in sight) but i was wondering the amount of bucks that you see when the rut comes around? And do you think that if you held off on the does that you would see more bucks?
Don't forget, those overpopulated does are competing with the bucks nutritional needs. Too many does and the quality of the bucks deteriorate. Bucks will actually leave an area as well to find the nutrition they need not to mention that does will actually run off bucks that compete with their needs as well as the needs of their offspring. Bad nutrition, bad genetic and overall herd health.

Those 130" animals could very well have been 140" animals with good nutrition etc...

Quote:
Yes. I"d likely see a few more bucks EARLY"..but I don"t think the big picture is being looked at, overall. If a doe comes into estrous".it"s highly likely "A" buck is going to breed her. When there"s little competition"..there"s more of a likelihood that the dominant buck(s) aren"t going to be able to handle the workload. In a perfect world".the doe prances her would-be suitor around the woods"for the sole purpose of wanting the dominant buck to see her, ready".and get this juvenile off her butt. Natural selection at its" finest in the deer woods. The more does the dominant bucks have to breed"..the less healthy they are (some die during this process".or shortly thereafter). Thinning does to a more manageable population creates competition for the ones left. It also means there are less does, overall, to be bred"..which means that we should see healthier bucks. What I risk at the beginning of the season (possible fewer buck sightings)""I hope to reap rewards from near the end.
This is exactly right, when the lock down phase or Peak rut happens, the mature animals are already with does, that leaves too many does that will either not get bred or might be bred by the inferior animals. IF the does do not get bred the first time, the bucks still and will run them when they come in the second time, same scenerio mature bucks are locked down and the other does might be bred by inferior bucks or not at all. Then we have the 3rd rut, can you imagine how hard that is on bucks....when they should be resting and feeding for the winter, they are still running ragged for the remaining does.

Jeff, your doing the right thing. I'm hoping to help and reap some of them rewards in a few years.
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Old 10-16-2007, 09:30 AM   #4
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Default RE: Why to take does....and does it affect buck sightings?

Good stuff, Rybo. I know there's 20 fewer does (in the herd I hunt)than there was before the summer started. Maybe we'll see a difference.......maybe we won't. We;ll see.
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Old 10-16-2007, 09:49 AM   #5
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Default RE: Why to take does....and does it affect buck sightings?

If you ask a game biologist he will tell you to take your does early, not in December...They should be taken before the rut, this eliminates competition for food later in the season, keeps the bucks from wasting energy breeding does that will be killed later and also makes the bucks chase the does that are left...
If you have too many does its easy for the bucks to breed and inferior bucks will also pass on their genes.....

20 years ago, I would see 30-50 deer feeding in our fields down east....The vast majority would be does and small racked bucks....Now we see 10-12 does and have killed some nice bucks coming into the fields chasing does....

You can not reduce the herd by taking bucks...If you want to have a healthy herd and reduce the inbreeding you need to take does as well...
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