Does w/ Fawns....Not a debate....just information
09-12-2007, 09:50 AM
#1
Dominant Buck
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Join Date: Oct 2005
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Posts: 21,043
Does w/ Fawns....Not a debate....just information
If you'll remember....I posted some photos of a few MD deer that a memeber of another site I visit (NC Deer) took while he was working with the MD Nat resources office (Not sure of the proper name for the entity) this past summer.
He'd posted on our state site about his doe he took here, Saturday morning....and how she had a fawn with her. I've been torn on this morally.....so I inquired to him about the question I had.....
Will the fawns survive....if I take out mama, now?
I'm posting his response......along with the response I got from my NCWRC Wildlife Biologist (Sent him the same question, yesterday). The answers cause another set of questions thatI'll delve into after you see them.
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GMMAT, I actually know Chris...we went to this past year's Southeast Deer Study Group together in Maryland. As for shooting does with fawns, they are perfectly capable of fending for themselves. I will say there is a lower chance of survival for the fawns, but it is not because of nutritional deficits caused by potentially removing their mother's milk. They are simply at higher risk of blundering out in front of someone's deer stand or getting whacked on the road without their mother's guidance. The doe I shot Saturday morning was, in fact, not producing milk anymore. She still had evident teets, but they were dried up - probably in the past couple of weeks. Shooting does at the end of the season when the fawns are grown doesn't do you any good in reducing your herd ratio for the current year's rut and also wastes several hundred pounds of food to a deer that could have been killed opening week rather than 3 months later. Shoot away.
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And then....This from our Wildlife Bio., Chris Kreh.
Fawns here in North Carolina are generally born in May and June, and they are no longer dependent on nursing with the doe when they are about 10 weeks old. Though they may continue supplemental nursing into the early bow season, they are fully capable of surviving on their own if the doe is harvested. The moral dilemma is more an issue of perception or misconception, rather than biology. There is no biological problem with harvesting does, even if they have fawns present, during the early bow season. The fawns will survive. I hope that helps. If you would like to discuss further, please don’t hesitate to give me a call at the number below.
Thanks,
Chris
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The side dilemma I have is......am I "really" doing the right thing by letting does with fawns "pass"? If overall herd reduction is my goal.....why not preserve the food these does will be consuming (if passed on) by taking them out, now? Why not ENSURE they are outof the breeding pool?
These are valid questions.
He'd posted on our state site about his doe he took here, Saturday morning....and how she had a fawn with her. I've been torn on this morally.....so I inquired to him about the question I had.....
Will the fawns survive....if I take out mama, now?
I'm posting his response......along with the response I got from my NCWRC Wildlife Biologist (Sent him the same question, yesterday). The answers cause another set of questions thatI'll delve into after you see them.
-----------------------------
GMMAT, I actually know Chris...we went to this past year's Southeast Deer Study Group together in Maryland. As for shooting does with fawns, they are perfectly capable of fending for themselves. I will say there is a lower chance of survival for the fawns, but it is not because of nutritional deficits caused by potentially removing their mother's milk. They are simply at higher risk of blundering out in front of someone's deer stand or getting whacked on the road without their mother's guidance. The doe I shot Saturday morning was, in fact, not producing milk anymore. She still had evident teets, but they were dried up - probably in the past couple of weeks. Shooting does at the end of the season when the fawns are grown doesn't do you any good in reducing your herd ratio for the current year's rut and also wastes several hundred pounds of food to a deer that could have been killed opening week rather than 3 months later. Shoot away.
-------------------------------------------------------
And then....This from our Wildlife Bio., Chris Kreh.
Fawns here in North Carolina are generally born in May and June, and they are no longer dependent on nursing with the doe when they are about 10 weeks old. Though they may continue supplemental nursing into the early bow season, they are fully capable of surviving on their own if the doe is harvested. The moral dilemma is more an issue of perception or misconception, rather than biology. There is no biological problem with harvesting does, even if they have fawns present, during the early bow season. The fawns will survive. I hope that helps. If you would like to discuss further, please don’t hesitate to give me a call at the number below.
Thanks,
Chris
--------------------------------------------------------
The side dilemma I have is......am I "really" doing the right thing by letting does with fawns "pass"? If overall herd reduction is my goal.....why not preserve the food these does will be consuming (if passed on) by taking them out, now? Why not ENSURE they are outof the breeding pool?
These are valid questions.
09-12-2007, 10:00 AM
#2
Giant Nontypical
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: PA
Posts: 9,085
RE: Does w/ Fawns....Not a debate....just information
Jeff, i been pondering the same thing lately.
never gave it much though because by mid bow season the fawns are 70+ lbs usually and will be fine...by rifle season, when i have taken does, they are usually well old and large enough to survive...
but now with this early bow season starting this weekend, i been wondering what happens if a doe comes in with 2 yearlings and i shoot momma...
heck...if the yearlings aint spotted, i might take one of them if i can make sure it aint a button buck. just to ease my mind. momma might miss the little doe..but i know little doe and brother BB aint gunna die because i killed momma
lookin forward to reading more...i just dont know. id hate to kill momma and the fawns are out there alone and starve or die because of me. id have no problem taking a yearling doe.
never gave it much though because by mid bow season the fawns are 70+ lbs usually and will be fine...by rifle season, when i have taken does, they are usually well old and large enough to survive...
but now with this early bow season starting this weekend, i been wondering what happens if a doe comes in with 2 yearlings and i shoot momma...
heck...if the yearlings aint spotted, i might take one of them if i can make sure it aint a button buck. just to ease my mind. momma might miss the little doe..but i know little doe and brother BB aint gunna die because i killed momma
lookin forward to reading more...i just dont know. id hate to kill momma and the fawns are out there alone and starve or die because of me. id have no problem taking a yearling doe.
09-12-2007, 10:03 AM
#3
Dominant Buck
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Join Date: Oct 2005
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RE: Does w/ Fawns....Not a debate....just information
Mauser:
These guys are Biologists.....and they say that nutritionally....they are no longer dependent on their mother.
These guys are Biologists.....and they say that nutritionally....they are no longer dependent on their mother.
Though they may continue supplemental nursing into the early bow season, they are fully capable of surviving on their own if the doe is harvested. The moral dilemma is more an issue of perception or misconception, rather than biology.
09-12-2007, 10:06 AM
#4
Giant Nontypical
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Pittsburgh, PA
Posts: 7,208
RE: Does w/ Fawns....Not a debate....just information
Maybe I am just cold, but I have never once considered letting a doe with fawns pass. Maybe it was also becuase then I would probably rarely if ever, be able to shoot a doe. I saw around 30 deer last night and all the adult does had twins except for 2 that had singles. Any of those moms are fair game come saturday mornign, and a few of those plump youngins aren't free of danger either. Especially if I have my longbow in hand.
I've always taken the outlook of doe"harvesting" as "shoot early and shoot often"
I've always taken the outlook of doe"harvesting" as "shoot early and shoot often"
09-12-2007, 10:10 AM
#6
Dominant Buck
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Join Date: Oct 2005
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RE: Does w/ Fawns....Not a debate....just information
rybo....
I HAD the mentality that I was morally doing the "right thing" by letting does with fawns "pass" (Though I'll ALWAYS view that term in a different light, from now on).
If I am taxed with herd reduction......for the simple fact that we are overpopulated with deer, here (in my local area).....then the survival of the (hers and all others)fawns could easily be dependent on the amount of food the doe in hand will consume....if left in the herd.
It's a valid point of view.
I'd also point out that the Bio's tell me to NOT be choosy about taking out the fawns, also. That.....I'll deal with, internally.
I HAD the mentality that I was morally doing the "right thing" by letting does with fawns "pass" (Though I'll ALWAYS view that term in a different light, from now on).
If I am taxed with herd reduction......for the simple fact that we are overpopulated with deer, here (in my local area).....then the survival of the (hers and all others)fawns could easily be dependent on the amount of food the doe in hand will consume....if left in the herd.
It's a valid point of view.
I'd also point out that the Bio's tell me to NOT be choosy about taking out the fawns, also. That.....I'll deal with, internally.
09-12-2007, 10:11 AM
#7
Giant Nontypical
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: North Lima Ohio & Clarion Pa
Posts: 6,453
RE: Does w/ Fawns....Not a debate....just information
I agree with your friend and the biologist, the fawns will survive.
I just don't wanna be standing there gutting Mommy out while the fawns watch from the tree line..Wonderring when she'll get up.
I'm just a softy at heart when it comes to young'ens.
I just don't wanna be standing there gutting Mommy out while the fawns watch from the tree line..Wonderring when she'll get up.
I'm just a softy at heart when it comes to young'ens.
09-12-2007, 10:11 AM
#8
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location:
Posts: 1,118
RE: Does w/ Fawns....Not a debate....just information
Ive never worried about shooting a doe with fawns. To me it was always common knowledge that the fawns would survive.
I do know that the easist way to avoid shooting a button buck is to take out the mom
(instead of waiting for a lone doe, which could be misidentified)
I do know that the easist way to avoid shooting a button buck is to take out the mom
(instead of waiting for a lone doe, which could be misidentified)
09-12-2007, 10:12 AM
#9
Fork Horn
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Flintville, TN
Posts: 124
RE: Does w/ Fawns....Not a debate....just information
Maybe I am just cold, but I have never once considered letting a doe with fawns pass. Maybe it was also becuase then I would probably rarely if ever, be able to shoot a doe. I saw around 30 deer last night and all the adult does had twins except for 2 that had singles. Any of those moms are fair game come saturday mornign, and a few of those plump youngins aren't free of danger either. Especially if I have my longbow in hand.
I've always taken the outlook of doe "harvesting" as "shoot early and shoot often"
I've always taken the outlook of doe "harvesting" as "shoot early and shoot often"
09-12-2007, 10:13 AM
#10
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: TN
Posts: 2,089
RE: Does w/ Fawns....Not a debate....just information
ORIGINAL: rybohunter
Maybe I am just cold, but I have never once considered letting a doe with fawns pass. Maybe it was also becuase then I would probably rarely if ever, be able to shoot a doe. I saw around 30 deer last night and all the adult does had twins except for 2 that had singles. Any of those moms are fair game come saturday mornign, and a few of those plump youngins aren't free of danger either. Especially if I have my longbow in hand.
I've always taken the outlook of doe"harvesting" as "shoot early and shoot often"
Maybe I am just cold, but I have never once considered letting a doe with fawns pass. Maybe it was also becuase then I would probably rarely if ever, be able to shoot a doe. I saw around 30 deer last night and all the adult does had twins except for 2 that had singles. Any of those moms are fair game come saturday mornign, and a few of those plump youngins aren't free of danger either. Especially if I have my longbow in hand.
I've always taken the outlook of doe"harvesting" as "shoot early and shoot often"
