MikeE51848

"Toby Bridges is very likely the top muzzleloading expert in the country today, with nine books on the topic to his credit, and currently hosts the leading source of high performance muzzleloading information on the internet today. He has never considered any muzleloader infallible, but had shot the Savage 10ML II more than enough to put all of his trust into the system. Now, after experiencing a catastrophic failure of that system, he's just happy to still be alive."

"I now question if muzzleloding will ever be to the point where smokeless powders can be safely used in a mass produced front-loaded rifle. I feel confident that we now have custom gun makers who have the ability to build such a rifle on a modern center-fire rifle action, using the best quality barrel and internal parts that can withstand the punishment of hot smokeless loads. But, I'm not sure that the average shooter is fully capable of following the stringent loading practices necessary to keep smokeless muzzleloading safe," says Bridges.

Driftrider, I'm not trying to rag on your choice of ML, just know that your gun is not infallable.

cayugad

an interesting page on the Savage I just came across you might want to look at if your a Savage owner was written by Mr. Bridges.

Look under the DANGER section


scan down and look under the danger section. I personally think any muzzleloader is as safe as the person loading and shooting it, unless you have a flawed one like the Winchester incident that was just brought to the forums attention....

driftrider

So out of a few thousand guns made and in current use, we have four claims of blown up guns. One involving a person testing loads beyond those listed as safe in the manual (Note: The 10ML-II's manual suggests a load of 44 grains of XMP-5744 with both 250 and 300gr .452cal bullets, and does state in a following paragraph that one may "try loading one or two grains more or less of these powders with saboted bullets of similar weights and diameters." Mr. Bridges was shooting 48-49 GRAINS of 5744 with an unspecified bullet when his rifle blew.) while at the same time testing an unspecified component for longevity (not to mention a person who has logged 35,000+ shots on Savage 10ML without incident, I might add).

Here is the quote from the article:
One might think that after shooting several shots with 2+ grain overcharges, followed by a 3+ grain overcharge, the rifle did what any overtaxed machine would do and failed. Try running your cars engine at redline for awhile. Sure, it runs fine for a little while and then wham! you throw a rod and bye-bye engine. Machines that are worked past their design limits long enough will fail.

Another who was using a powder that it not recommended in the manual, but was mearly suggested by an unnamed (former?) Savage engineer. And two more that are as yet unsubstanciated reports, where we don't know for sure exactly what the shooters did or did not do that may have caused the problems.

So the system is not perfect, like all other devices it can fail as well. Savage, Winchester (BPI), and I'm sure every other ML manufacturer has made guns that have been blown up. Four out of thousands isn't too bad. And let's not forget that CF rifles blow up all the time. Like I said, I personally witnessed a Remington M700 BDL .223 blow up literally 6 feet away from me. Would you say that the design of the M700 is flawed and all M700's are unsafe. I don't think so.

I personally will trust my Savage over any imported Traditions, BPI, or CVA gun any day. 129,000psi vs. 9,900psi...hmm, which one am I going to trust?

Mike

cayugad

driftrider.. I believe you have mistaken my intentions. I am not saying that Savage Muzzleloaders or Winchester for that matter are unsafe. I am saying there are barrels and components out there that under certain circumstances will fail. Whether the failure is caused by operator error or just structural defect. The reason for my posting of the Savage link was to only confirm the idea of people being careful in their loading procedures.

I own a CVA Staghorn Magnum. Although this Winchester incident is upsetting it has not changed my views on shooting my Staghorn in the least. After all both of the rifles are made by BPI. I am very careful with all loading procedures as I am sure you are. The fact the BPI rifle blew will be in the back of my mind. I would hope that BPI could find the real reason for the problem and post the facts, no matter who or whats to blame.

In the matter of your Savage. I am sure it is an excellent well made shooting rifle, and a pleasure to own. I see no reason why you would not trust the rifle. Do you have to weigh your charges to get them that exact?

I personally am not a person who believes that smokeless powders have a place in the muzzleloading world only because I have seen too many mistakes over the years with powder amounts being loaded. Even responsible people make errors. I guess that is why the Savage never appealed to me.

I was not aware of the other three experiences you mentioned with the Savage. I guess things happen. We can only be glad that no one was killed.....

Be safe out there.....

driftrider

I know.

As for weighing my charges, I use the Lee dippers, and intentionally use the dipper that is one step below the max listed. I also weighed roughly 20 dipper loads on my 5-0-5 scale to not only verify that the loads concured with the chart, but also that my dipping technique was accurate and consistant.

I recently picked up a bunch of 35mm film canisters, and as the weather gets cooler I intend to work the powder charges up toward the max loads listed in the manual (the sabots can't handle max loads in the warmer weather). When I do that I will certainly weight each and every charge to ensure that they do not go over the 44gr load of N110 listed in the manual. With that load I should still get 2250-2350fps with a 250gr SST/ML, which is more than good enough for me.

I do think, however, that Savage needs to publish a more complete set of bullet/sabot specific load data, along with pressure levels and clearly defined MAX loads just like a CF loading manual. The load data in the 10ML's manual is a bit skimpy, which could be what leads people to push the limits experimenting with loads not tested in Savage's ballistics lab.

To me, 2250fps with 250gr bullets is by far good enough performance. And I treat loading the Savage the same as I treat loading CF cartridges, and use only published powders and loads and NEVER exceed them. If others choose to load their 10ML's with loads and powders not listed by Savage as safe, a blown up gun is no ones fault but their own.

Mike

d.winsor

This is a lot of information for you to take in, I wish I had it when I got into muzzleloading. One thing you may find out, is when people give you advice about loads for you to try, your gun may not shoot the bullet and powder combinations some other people are shooting. That is not a bad thing, they probably didn’t lie to you, and you just have to vary other bullets, powders, sabots, or volume of your charges. One of the best ways to do this is with advice from people that have the same manufacture and model of muzzleloader as you. Changing one thing may put you where you want to be, over time a lot of people find out what normally works. Don’t discount advice unless you have tried it and the advice just doesn’t work for you. Just because the manual for your gun does not recommend doing something, doesn’t mean another manufacture recommends the same thing. Read the manufactures manual for the muzzleloader you purchase. The recommendations of the manufacturer should be followed, a suggestion and a recommendation are two different things, and in my manual for my Accura V2 CVA recommends you try several powder and bullet combinations. For my Accura V2 CVA says do not use saboted bullets of over 300 grains. CVA says do not use a conical bullet weighing over 400 grains. See the difference, those statements on bullet weight are not negotiable. I have known a lot of people that do it, I might let them know but I have to remember it is their gun and their responsibility not mine. I might stand way back when they shoot their gun like that. CVA says for 150 grains of powder they recommend pellets for powder, not that you can’t shoot a powder, CVA says loose powder does not burn as efficient as pellets in magnum loads in the 150 grain range. I have had a load that using magnum charges just didn’t work out, if I wanted to I could try pellets instead. Actually I like loose powder, “BH 209” if a bullet won’t work with it between 100 and 110 grains of BH 209 I probably would not shoot it. Transitions response to which models will shoot Blackhorn BH 209 Powder = Thank you for contacting us with your inquiry regarding which of our firearms can use the Blackhorn 209 powder. Our Vortek Strikerfire 209 models, Vortek 209 models, Pursuit 209 models and Buckstalker models are all designed with the closed breech system and can use Blackhorn 209 powders effectively. We have done extensive shooting with Blackhorn 209 powder in these models and have been very satisfied with the nice tight consistent groups as well as the benefit of being such a clean burning powder in these models. We typically use the Federal 209A primers with this powder. Now you should have an idea of what muzzleloading is all about, when in doubt always check with the manufacture of the muzzleloader you purchase, stay within the manufactures recommendations and you can’t go wrong.

Use the information you need, forget the rest. Rifle Manufactures, and models are at the bottom of this page.
POWDER:
I would check and see what the mfg. recommends for any gun you select, FF or FFF, you can call the Manufacture and ask them before you buy a gun. Or read the manual after you buy the gun.

Here is an explanation of different powders http://www.chuckhawks.com/blackpowder_roundup_2010.htm one powder I would recommend, is Western Powders Blackhorn 209: http://www.blackhorn209.com I have shot them all and BH 209 is the best. The powder is so potent that the manufacture recommends 120 grains as the maximum charge, even if the gun you purchase is designed to shoot 150 grains of other substitutes. Some older guns are not designed to shoot BH 209 or 150 grains of other substitutes. Here is the link to Western powders BH 209 article by Randy Wakeman, I don’t agree with everything he says but it will give you a good Idea of BH 209. http://www.chuckhawks.com/most_blackhorn_209.htm. One thing, If you decide to get a CVA and shoot BH 209, You need to buy a Blackhorn 209 breech plug from CVA http://www.cva.com/CVA-store.php?sho...eech%20Plugs#l or a western Powders BH 209 breech plug for CVA guns. https://www.westernpowders.com/ The Accura V2 CVA BH 209 plug takes a 1/8” drill bit to clean the carbon out of the flash channel (area under the primer), the OEM CVA Breech Plug, which is designed to shoot pellets, it takes .116 or a #32 drill bit, other models may vary drill bit size. The western powders breech plug for CVA comes with the proper drill bit. My T/C Pro Hunter came factory ready for BH 209 or any other powder or pellet, it takes a 1/8” drill bit (SIZE COMPLEMENTS OF ENCORE) to clean the flash channel, and other T/C Models may take a different drill bit size. Here is a link for tools to clean the flash channel and the flash hole in a breech plug. (FREE SHIPPING) http://www.plugcleaner.com/ you adjust the collar in the kit to keep the drill bit off the flash hole. If the kit listed does not have your drill bit size call 440-238-6050 or e-mail them at [email protected]. If you just want to use a drill bit wrap electrical tape around the shank of the bit until you can grip the bit firmly, then twist it in the flash channel using only finger pressure, about once every 6 shots. Be careful as too much pressure could damage the flash hole. Also not enough pressure will not clean the carbon out near the flash hole. Carbon can be very hard.
Randy says to use an electric drill every 100 shots! I would not do this, you would probably damage the flash hole in the breech plug, if you cleaned the flash channel between every 100 shots, and you would probably need an electric drill. If there is any doubt as to the size of a drill bit to clean the Breech Plug on the gun you select, Call the manufacturer of the gun, you can do this before you make the purchase.
BULLETS:
One bullet to try would be the Hornady #44280 .44 Cal 300 grain XTP with the Harvester green crush rib sabot, or another bullet is the Hornady #45202 SST/ML 250 grain bullet with the Thompson Center Superglide Sabot. I use 100 grains of BH 209 with these 2 bullet combinations. Accuracy is very good, you could start at 90 grains and work your way up to 120 grains of BH 209 powder, use the load with the best group to initially sight your muzzleloader in, unless you find a better bullet and powder combination. Those bullets are both adequate to hunt deer if they group for you. I’d use the Hornady XTP at 100 yards or less, the SST/ML you could probably stretch it out a bit depending on your group. The reason I would recommend these bullets to sight in with is because they are relatively cheap, you can buy both in bulk and sabots at LG Outdoors, harvester, or MMP. You could sight your gun in and get experience without shooting expensive bullets. Then you can select something like the Barnes TEZ 250 grain bullet. I don’t think it would take you as long to sight in the Barnes TEZ, once you have sighted your gun with the cheaper bullets. As you sight your rifle in, roughly adjust your scope or sights to the center of the target, all you want to do is find which bullet and charge combination is the most accurate. After you find your bullet and powder combination that is the most accurate in your gun, adjust your sights or scope for POA and POI. If one bullet does not work well in your gun, try another. I personally use the Barnes Spitfire TEZ 250 grain bullet, it is an all copper bullet, and it is a flat base bullet that comes with a blue sabot. You can buy Barnes bullets in bulk and use MMP Sabots, here is a link to buy various Barnes and other bullets & sabots in bulk. (Compliments of Encore), http://www.smokelessmz.com/bullets.html here is a link to choose sabots for Barnes Bullets. (If the link doesn’t work, if you really want to see the information you are going to have to open another window and manually enter the link, into your browser, it is worth the effort) file:///H:/Best%20Accuracy%20For%20Your%20Muzzleloader%20%20% 20Barnes%20Bullets.htm Here is a link from Barnes with Bullet and Velocity information using numerous Powders and Bullets. http://www.barnesbullets.com/images/...loaderData.pdf. This link does not contain information for the Barnes TEZ, this is an older link, TEZ bullet and velocity information is available when you purchase TEZ Bullets in 15 per pack, you can also get information on various bullet Velocities and with powder charges of 100, 110 and 120 grains of Blackhorn 209 powder on this site http://www.blackhorn209.com . The TEZ is very accurate and expand at low velocities and at high velocities. I use 110 grains of BH 209 with this bullet, it groups well at 100 yards and will stretch out to 200 yards, farther than that depending on the shooter. Again if you start shooting the TEZ vary your charges until you find what your gun likes, with BH 209 start at 90 grains and work up to 120 grains using BH 209. (A sweet spot for BH 209 seems to be 100 to 110 grains) I would not use a powerbelt bullet, I do not think they are for beginners. Too much powder and they may disintegrate, too little and they will pencil through deer. The platinum powerbelt bullets are for magnum loads of 100 grains or more of powder or pellet. Many people swear by the powerbelts. I would not use T/C Maxie bullets, they have absolutely no expansion and will pencil through a deer. I used a 430 grain Maxie bullet to hunt deer, and killed many deer with the Maxie, with a .54 Caliber T/C Renegade and 100 grains of Pyrodex powder, it would knock your teeth out. Sabots may be obtained from Harvester https://www.harvestermuzzleloading.com/ Or MMP: http://mmpsabots.com/ If you need help selecting a sabot call Harvester or MMP and they will help you match the bullet you want to shoot with a sabot. Ask them for a couple of recommendations as if one sabot does not work with your gun you will have another sabot to try. If all else fails, select another bullet and or sabot. Here is a good supplier for Bullets and a lot of other things related to muzzleloading. http://www.midsouthshooterssupply.co...?CurrentPage=1
RIFLES:
I am partial to CVA guns, I just like them. I have an Accura V2 that works great for me. There are 4 of the muzzleloading manufactures listed below. The only gun I could not recommend is the T/C Pro Hunter. Mine shoots great, I have had no issues, not in hunting or on the range. But I have read posts that indicate a problem with accuracy from some and no help from T/C. People modify the T/C Pro Hunter using aftermarket parts and also to include cutting off the end of the barrel known as the QLA. If one has problems they can cure all known issues with just $35.00 worth of parts (information provided by Encore), if one can do the work themselves. Not including cutting off the QLA if needed. If you can’t do the work yourself it will probably cost you for a gun shop to do it for you, modifications would probably void your warranty with Thompson center. A beginner has no business buying a T/C Pro Hunter, The beginner has too much to learn and does not need to try to trouble shoot a muzzleloader being inaccurate, other than cleaning procedures, Bullet selection, powder selection or grains of powder to use.

http://www.cva.com/ Very good fast customer service, I think the best value for the money, accurate to. I own the Accura V2, CVA gives you 17 days to shoot it, if it is not the best gun you have ever shot, CVA will refund your money. If you decide to purchase a CVA muzzleloader and decide at some point you need a shim kit, here it is, http://www.cva.com/CVA-Store-View.php?id=504 be sure to read all instructions.
http://www.knightrifles.com/ scroll to the bottom of the page to access all of the options. I have heard their customer service is lacking and that it can be hard to get a hold of them when needed, depending on what time of year it is. I have also heard their guns are accurate and kind of pricey, and harder to clean than a break action gun. I have never owned one of the knight muzzleloaders.
https://www.traditionsfirearms.com/c.../Muzzleloaders I have never owned a Traditions muzzleloader, and have never heard anything about customer service. Once I read a review about one of their muzzleloaders, there were a couple of minor negative comments, and as I remember the muzzleloader reviewed was accurate.
https://www.tcarms.com/firearms/ Scroll down to see muzzleloaders. Except for the Pro Hunter I have not heard much negative about the T/C line of guns. I think their customer service sucks. They are pricey.

I would consider looking around for prices if you find a muzzleloader you are interested in. The manufacture sites tend to be on the high dollar side. Here is one site that I hear is pretty good to deal with and has good deals on rifles: http://www.muzzle-loaders.com/muzzleloader-rifles.php When you find the rifle you want google it by Mfg. and model name, you will get many retail sites that you can compare pricing and reviews. Google a specific brand and/or type and/or caliber of bullet, you can compare prices and possibly find the bullet in bulk.

Gm54-120

$hooter it seems you have not been around for quite awhile.

Last Activity: 06-29-2004 11:20 AM

falcon

Holy thread resurrection, Bat Man.

Muley Hunter

Leave it to windsor to bring up a 10 year old thread.

Just so he can post his copy/paste info again.

d.winsor

It is not a 10 year old thread Muley. It is information I put together this week, It has something for everyone, If the only thing someone wants is rifles, they can go to the bottom of the post. I'll make sure I incorporate that in my next copie. Thanks.