Muzzleloading Opinion (long)
11-15-2003, 08:16 AM
#1
Thread Starter
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location:
Posts: 185
Muzzleloading Opinion (long)
OPINION by Randy Wakeman:
The CIP, headquartered in Belgium, is the international controlling body for gun proofs. The Birmingham Proof House has information here: http://www.gunproof.com/Proofing/proofing.html .
All countries that are signatories to the CIP (Belgium, Spain, Great Britain, Italy, etc.) accept each other' s proof marks, as detailed above.
The blackpowder CIP standards are here, courtesy of the Birmingham Proof House: http://members.aol.com/randymagic/bpcip.pdf . You will need Adobe Acrobat reader to view this.
In the United States, SAMMI is the governing body, see http://www.saami.org/ansi.html .
The NEF H & R Huntsman is based on a smokeless rated action, accepts center fire cartridge barrels, and is a form 4473 firearm as a result. Marlin Firearms (owner of NEF / H & R), Thompson Center, and Savage Arms are all members of SAMMI. It is due to SAMMI specifications and its members, such as Federal Cartridge, Springfield Armory, Bushmaster, Ruger, Winchester-Olin, Remington, Savage, Smith & Wesson, Colt, Weatherby, etc., etc., that there is standardization in ammunition, chamber dimensions, barrel and cartridge tolerances, allowable pressures, etc. Due to SAMMI, you can take a SAMMI member' s .270 Winchester or 20 ga. round, and fire it in a SAMMI member' s .270 rifle or 20 ga. shotgun with established standards in place. As mentioned on the SAMMI site:
SAAMI Sets Product Standards
for Firearms and Ammunition
The primary work of SAAMI is done by its Technical Committee in the setting of industry standards. Product standards for firearms and ammunition are developed by two Product Standards Task Forces, one for ammunition and one for firearms. Recommendations of the task forces are submitted for review by the entire Technical Committee. Other key areas of technical expertise and standardization include pressure measurement, muzzle loading, and working toward universal, internationally recognized standards by working with the Commission Internationale Permanente (CIP). In Europe, proof houses or testing facilities for firearms and ammunition, have set European standards since the 1800s. The CIP is an international association of proof houses. By working together, the CIP and SAAMI are working towards the development of international standards.
Though various individuals from BPI / CVA / Winchester Muzzleloading have asserted that the genuine House of Eibar proof marks are " not proof marks at all, but generic manufacturing marks," or merely " export marks," -- they are horrific liars, according to the CIP, Birimingham Proof House, the House of Eibar Proof House, and EVEN Traditions Performance firearms. They are CIP proof marks, period.
They have also been referred to as " MINIMUM PRESSURE," a bizarre statement-- there is no such thing, according to the CIP. My guns are operating at a minimum pressure right now-- which is either zero, or 14.7 PSI, as you prefer.
As lamented, there is no governing body in the United States for blackpowder arms. They are non-GCA arms, not " firearms" according to the ATF, and have little or nothing in the way of standards. They cannot even agree on something so very basic as what " .50 caliber" might be, for example.
As CVA and Traditions are little more than import companies, with no testing facilities or engineering staff in the United States, they probably do not know what the limitations of their guns are. Hence, they remain unable to state whether their guns are ever tested to 25,000 PSI-- no problem for the specific companies and people already mentioned in this thread have that have long ago gone on the public record, as detailed above, as saying " yes!"
What pressures are CVA / BPI / Traditions guns actually good for? I have no idea. They are are the ones selling them, they are taking the American dollars for them, so it is my opinion that they are the ones that need to convince consumers that their products are well-tested and safe to use-- no one else. Also, when a powder manufacturer' s CLEAR warnings are violated (see the label of every box of Hodgdon Pyrodex or Triple Seven pellets ever sold), as in the case when 150 grain pellet loads are recommended-- it is incumbent for the manufacturer who is breaking the propellants' LOUD and CLEAR maximum charge warning by what basis this should be considered a SAFE practice. As independently tested by Lyman, a 3 pellet, 150 grain Pyrodex load pushing a Hornady 240 gr. sabot out of a 22" barrel generates 27,000 PSI-- that, with a #11 percussion cap. And neither Traditions nor BPI can publicly state that their barrels are tested to 25,000 PSI? Why the hell not? Their " recommended" loads can EXCEED that level. There is no defense for this level of deer-in-the-headlight response, and this tragically repugnant level of both incompetence and unprofessionalism. If a manufacturer selling a firearm recommends a procedure, in printed manuals, that develops 27,000 PSI-- and cannot clearly state that their product has been tested to that level of pressure, they are dispaying both ineptitude and ignorance.
No one is asking for " BURST" or dangerous levels here. It is WELL-PROVEN, TESTED SAFE PRESSURE LEVELS that were asked for. When you muzzleload, you ARE a reloader. Reloaders need to know a maximum PROVEN SAFE pressure, so they can be sure to STAY BELOW IT. The reloading manuals of every major powder manufacturer are chock full of this vry same information, free for the download, so you can reload SAFELY. SAMMI standards are never exceeded, and that has made the firearms industry a FAR safer, better place.
Firestone tires were " SAFE," and so were Ford Pintos. It seems we have a very, very short memory.
And some find this topic " laughable," only because their gun did not fail today. When the hospitals are filled with injured shooters, and the only recourse is personal injury suits, then finally some will be " satisfied." How compassionate.
A company by the name of CVA send so many innocent muzzleloaders to the hospital in 1995 and 1996 that they were forced into bankruptcy. THOSE guns were so-called " tested and safe," and presented as such at the time. Enough blood has been spilled over those poorly tested, defective monstrosities that no one doubts that those guns were / are dangerous.
I personally don' t care for the timing of that. Needless risk is just that, and to knowingly assume unnecessary risk is amazingly imbecilic. What level of risk do you personally think is " okay" ? One incident out of a thousand? Ten thousand? One failure per 1,000,000 shots? One can falsely look to track record as being indicative of safety. Bridgestone / Firestone did precisely that, with " millions of safe miles driven." In the case of the CVA Optima and BPI / Winchester Apex, even the flawed notion of previous track record cannot work, as the barreled actions of these models have been on the market for months, not years.
More damage has already been done to the inline industry by the CVA Apollo than any other company or firearm, and more litigation has resulted from personal injury case with this one company than all other inline companies combined, to the best of my knowledge. How many cases are STILL underway in court are right now?
Anybody who wishes to can see how Knight Rifles are made right in Centerville, Iowa. Same with Green Mountain barrels in Conway, NH. They are part of the very same parent company, EBSCO / PRADCO Outdoor Brands. That is just one example.
The ticket to ride is $139 or so for a new American Knight, the NEF / Huntsman is in the same price arena. If you settle for less, then than that is your personal choice.
The CIP, headquartered in Belgium, is the international controlling body for gun proofs. The Birmingham Proof House has information here: http://www.gunproof.com/Proofing/proofing.html .
All countries that are signatories to the CIP (Belgium, Spain, Great Britain, Italy, etc.) accept each other' s proof marks, as detailed above.
The blackpowder CIP standards are here, courtesy of the Birmingham Proof House: http://members.aol.com/randymagic/bpcip.pdf . You will need Adobe Acrobat reader to view this.
In the United States, SAMMI is the governing body, see http://www.saami.org/ansi.html .
The NEF H & R Huntsman is based on a smokeless rated action, accepts center fire cartridge barrels, and is a form 4473 firearm as a result. Marlin Firearms (owner of NEF / H & R), Thompson Center, and Savage Arms are all members of SAMMI. It is due to SAMMI specifications and its members, such as Federal Cartridge, Springfield Armory, Bushmaster, Ruger, Winchester-Olin, Remington, Savage, Smith & Wesson, Colt, Weatherby, etc., etc., that there is standardization in ammunition, chamber dimensions, barrel and cartridge tolerances, allowable pressures, etc. Due to SAMMI, you can take a SAMMI member' s .270 Winchester or 20 ga. round, and fire it in a SAMMI member' s .270 rifle or 20 ga. shotgun with established standards in place. As mentioned on the SAMMI site:
SAAMI Sets Product Standards
for Firearms and Ammunition
The primary work of SAAMI is done by its Technical Committee in the setting of industry standards. Product standards for firearms and ammunition are developed by two Product Standards Task Forces, one for ammunition and one for firearms. Recommendations of the task forces are submitted for review by the entire Technical Committee. Other key areas of technical expertise and standardization include pressure measurement, muzzle loading, and working toward universal, internationally recognized standards by working with the Commission Internationale Permanente (CIP). In Europe, proof houses or testing facilities for firearms and ammunition, have set European standards since the 1800s. The CIP is an international association of proof houses. By working together, the CIP and SAAMI are working towards the development of international standards.
Though various individuals from BPI / CVA / Winchester Muzzleloading have asserted that the genuine House of Eibar proof marks are " not proof marks at all, but generic manufacturing marks," or merely " export marks," -- they are horrific liars, according to the CIP, Birimingham Proof House, the House of Eibar Proof House, and EVEN Traditions Performance firearms. They are CIP proof marks, period.
They have also been referred to as " MINIMUM PRESSURE," a bizarre statement-- there is no such thing, according to the CIP. My guns are operating at a minimum pressure right now-- which is either zero, or 14.7 PSI, as you prefer.
As lamented, there is no governing body in the United States for blackpowder arms. They are non-GCA arms, not " firearms" according to the ATF, and have little or nothing in the way of standards. They cannot even agree on something so very basic as what " .50 caliber" might be, for example.
As CVA and Traditions are little more than import companies, with no testing facilities or engineering staff in the United States, they probably do not know what the limitations of their guns are. Hence, they remain unable to state whether their guns are ever tested to 25,000 PSI-- no problem for the specific companies and people already mentioned in this thread have that have long ago gone on the public record, as detailed above, as saying " yes!"
What pressures are CVA / BPI / Traditions guns actually good for? I have no idea. They are are the ones selling them, they are taking the American dollars for them, so it is my opinion that they are the ones that need to convince consumers that their products are well-tested and safe to use-- no one else. Also, when a powder manufacturer' s CLEAR warnings are violated (see the label of every box of Hodgdon Pyrodex or Triple Seven pellets ever sold), as in the case when 150 grain pellet loads are recommended-- it is incumbent for the manufacturer who is breaking the propellants' LOUD and CLEAR maximum charge warning by what basis this should be considered a SAFE practice. As independently tested by Lyman, a 3 pellet, 150 grain Pyrodex load pushing a Hornady 240 gr. sabot out of a 22" barrel generates 27,000 PSI-- that, with a #11 percussion cap. And neither Traditions nor BPI can publicly state that their barrels are tested to 25,000 PSI? Why the hell not? Their " recommended" loads can EXCEED that level. There is no defense for this level of deer-in-the-headlight response, and this tragically repugnant level of both incompetence and unprofessionalism. If a manufacturer selling a firearm recommends a procedure, in printed manuals, that develops 27,000 PSI-- and cannot clearly state that their product has been tested to that level of pressure, they are dispaying both ineptitude and ignorance.
No one is asking for " BURST" or dangerous levels here. It is WELL-PROVEN, TESTED SAFE PRESSURE LEVELS that were asked for. When you muzzleload, you ARE a reloader. Reloaders need to know a maximum PROVEN SAFE pressure, so they can be sure to STAY BELOW IT. The reloading manuals of every major powder manufacturer are chock full of this vry same information, free for the download, so you can reload SAFELY. SAMMI standards are never exceeded, and that has made the firearms industry a FAR safer, better place.
Firestone tires were " SAFE," and so were Ford Pintos. It seems we have a very, very short memory.
And some find this topic " laughable," only because their gun did not fail today. When the hospitals are filled with injured shooters, and the only recourse is personal injury suits, then finally some will be " satisfied." How compassionate.
A company by the name of CVA send so many innocent muzzleloaders to the hospital in 1995 and 1996 that they were forced into bankruptcy. THOSE guns were so-called " tested and safe," and presented as such at the time. Enough blood has been spilled over those poorly tested, defective monstrosities that no one doubts that those guns were / are dangerous.
I personally don' t care for the timing of that. Needless risk is just that, and to knowingly assume unnecessary risk is amazingly imbecilic. What level of risk do you personally think is " okay" ? One incident out of a thousand? Ten thousand? One failure per 1,000,000 shots? One can falsely look to track record as being indicative of safety. Bridgestone / Firestone did precisely that, with " millions of safe miles driven." In the case of the CVA Optima and BPI / Winchester Apex, even the flawed notion of previous track record cannot work, as the barreled actions of these models have been on the market for months, not years.
More damage has already been done to the inline industry by the CVA Apollo than any other company or firearm, and more litigation has resulted from personal injury case with this one company than all other inline companies combined, to the best of my knowledge. How many cases are STILL underway in court are right now?
Anybody who wishes to can see how Knight Rifles are made right in Centerville, Iowa. Same with Green Mountain barrels in Conway, NH. They are part of the very same parent company, EBSCO / PRADCO Outdoor Brands. That is just one example.
The ticket to ride is $139 or so for a new American Knight, the NEF / Huntsman is in the same price arena. If you settle for less, then than that is your personal choice.
11-16-2003, 10:31 AM
#3
Fork Horn
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location:
Posts: 339
RE: Muzzleloading Opinion (long)
Randy if you remember my post from before on this issue I also have a concern about this ,I have a traditions rifle and I have not loaded it to 150 because I have seen no proof on the gun that says it can really take the pressure.Although I have seen a muzzleloader that was put to the exteme test and it didn' t fail, it also was not a SAMMI approved gun and we tested it to at least 4 times the recommended pressure.So the question is who is testing these guns and to what extreme.I have tried to find out about the traditions rifles but I have come up short.Something should be done about this before somebody is hurt or killed.
11-16-2003, 09:03 PM
#4
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Crescent Valley, NV
Posts: 2,271
RE: Muzzleloading Opinion (long)
How about we set up our own " standard institute." Set up numbers for ML manufacturers to go buy. Maybe then they will start to make sure that their ML' s are safe in the future. I have a CVA Bobcat, and it recommends no more than 100 grs. of pyrodex. I DO NOT go over 90 grs. because there is simply no way to tell how much pressure is being generated. I would much rather be safe than sorry.
P.S.- how did the SAMMI get started anyway- by people who were concerned about the safety of the people that shoot firearms.
P.S.- how did the SAMMI get started anyway- by people who were concerned about the safety of the people that shoot firearms.
11-17-2003, 12:07 AM
#5
Thread Starter
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location:
Posts: 185
RE: Muzzleloading Opinion (long)
P.S.- how did the SAMMI get started anyway- by people who were concerned about the safety of the people that shoot firearms.
There are only a few major muzzleloading manufacturers, and all have " claimed" they want some type of standards. Yet, there has been zero visible progress to date. They don' t seem to want it very badly.
No one wants " evil big government" regulation. Yet, the fact remains that the tank on your gas grill is built to better defined standards than many muzzleloaders are. That makes little sense to me.
11-18-2003, 10:17 AM
#8
Giant Nontypical
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Texas - BUT NOW in Madison County, NY
Posts: 6,270
RE: Muzzleloading Opinion (long)
Hey, y' all! First off, it' s SAAMI, not SAMMI!
Second, while I don' t for a minute question the assertion that these guns have not been proofed to shoot a 3-pellet load, and I never use pellets (or such heavy charges of loose powder), is there any REPORTED/VERIFIED instance of a blown-up gun in this country in which a three-pellet load of Pyrodex was fired? JUST ASKING! Not advocating!!
Second, while I don' t for a minute question the assertion that these guns have not been proofed to shoot a 3-pellet load, and I never use pellets (or such heavy charges of loose powder), is there any REPORTED/VERIFIED instance of a blown-up gun in this country in which a three-pellet load of Pyrodex was fired? JUST ASKING! Not advocating!!
11-18-2003, 11:43 PM
#9
Thread Starter
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location:
Posts: 185
RE: Muzzleloading Opinion (long)
SAAMI Sets Product Standards
for Firearms and Ammunition
for Firearms and Ammunition
What type of reports do you seek? Litigation / personal injury, hospital emergency room reports, or a " 60 Minutes" expose? Who does the verifying?
The truth is not something you really want to hear.
11-22-2003, 09:55 AM
#10
Giant Nontypical
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Texas - BUT NOW in Madison County, NY
Posts: 6,270
RE: Muzzleloading Opinion (long)
So I ask the question,is the CVA eclipse hunter magnum that I just bought for my son safe to shoot 150 grain 777 charges?