Idaholewis

I will try and explain this as briefly as possible, As many of you on Modernmuzzleloader know i was having a HECK of a time with my cold clean bore shot back in the summer, I recently started working with my .50 Cal Green Mountain LRH preparing for my upcoming hunt, i knew i had to Conquer the cold clean bore shot or there was ABSOLUTELY no reason to even think about hunting with ANY of my Muzzleloaders (and i have quite few of them!) Everytime i went out and shot my cold clean bore was a total DISASTER? If any of you remember there were times out when i could not hit a 3ft by 3ft Square the first shot?! I tried popping caps off which did help some but stil not great, i tried Graphite Lock eeze to simulate a fouled bore, that also helped a bit but was stil not great, I could not figure out what the heck was causing the EXTREME cold clean bore problem i was having? And this was not in just 1 rifle, this was EVERY rifle i own!! The only thing i was doing differently is using a little handheld steam cleaner thru the breech end, this gets about 8-10" of the barrel HOT, BURN YA HOT! It cleans the Snail/Patented breech/powder chamber back to shiny brand new inside. I finally came to the conclusion that this was likely my problem? I started out with my Stainless .50 Cal and sure enough my cold clean bore was AWOL, Then the rifle settled in and shot AWESOME as usual, when i got home i skipped the steam cleaner on the barrel, i went back to my bucket of water cleaning routine for the barrel, the only parts i steam cleaned were the Nipple, Hammer, and lock, I loaded up the next morning and shot again, the cold clean bore was REALLY close this time! I repeated my cleaning procedure WITHOUT using the steam cleaner on the barrel, i headed out again the next morning, this cold clean bore was ABSOLUTELY dead center bullseye! So i went from not being able to hit a 3ft square, back to being dead center with all of my shots!

Folks the steam cleaner is an AWESOME little tool for DEEP cleaning, they clean better than anything out there, but i can tell you from first hand experience that it will DESTROY your cold clean bore shot, which for a hunter is obviously the most crucial shot you will take! From now on i will be using my steam cleaner for my parts, Nipples, Locks, Hammers, etc. But i will definitely NOT be using it in my barrels anymore. If you are bench rest shooting and can afford to 'burn' the first shot none of this is a big deal, after i burned my first shot my following shots were always spot on. I am now working on getting my 45 Green Mountain LRH back in business, this morning was its first shoot without the barrel being steam cleaned, my shot was high and left about 1 foot. I will clean it again the ole fashion way in a bucket of water and hopefully get the chance to try again tomorrow, if it does like my 50 Cal did it will take about 3 sessions to get straightened back out.

Idaholewis

Any of you that frequent the Castboolit forum feel free to share this information there, back when i was a member there i started a thread on cleaning with a steam cleaner and i know several guys jumped on the wagon and got little hand held steam cleaners like mine, This was obviously before i knew what i know now. This could save someone a missed animal, or worse case Scenario a wounded animal.

Again the steam cleaner works AMAZING at cleaning heavy gunk, i dont feel anything cleans as well as HOT steam, the steam cleaner definitely has a place in my cleaning routine, but its parts ONLY such as the locks, hammers, nipples, etc. I will no longer be using it in my barrels

sabotloader

Why do you feel that you need to shoot a cold 'clean' bore when hunting? I never hunt with a spic and span clean bore! When you are shooting matches do you shoot a clean bore or what I call a 'semi-fouled' bore?

Even shooting centerfires in a match we never shoot a 'clean' bore.

Idaholewis

I never trust a cold clean bore with my centerfires, after a deep cleaning i ALWAYS foul the bore with 1 shot, then i shoot a 3-5 shot group and if everything is good i leave that rifle alone at that point and i start hunting with it, i clean my centerfires after 10-15 shots. BUT With Blackpowder this isn't an option that i know of? A Muzzleloader would be a corroded mess in short a time if a guy loaded up and shot a Fouler shot, then reloaded without cleaning. how do you foul a Muzzleloader bore before hunting? I tried the Cap fouling method with some success, but stil was a hit and miss deal, i then tried the Graphite Lock eeze stuff with about the same results. Please Enlighten me on how to foul shoot a Muzzleloader without cleaning afterward, and avoiding rust

sabotloader

OK and this is just me and I have done this same method for many years now - without any problems.

One.. I have to say that I shoot T7 and BH, both much less corrosive than any other powder - but yet both are still somewhat corrosive.

Second... And I believe this to be a big key... no petroleum products or Teflon are used in the bore - everything is synthetic except for the old fashioned Blue Windex with Ammonia.

A lot of what I do is taboo by most standards but it works for me.

Our season will start October 10, sometime the week before I will take the ML of choice out to the range. Fire 3-4 caps/primers to make sure the breech plug is clear of contaminates. Then I will load up and shoot a target to verify POI. Might take 5 shots or so. If I am using T7 I will patch the bore with a slightly damp Windex patch after each shot. If I am shooting BH no need for the Windex between patches.

After the range shoot and when I get home I will patch the barrel with a couple of the moist Windex patches, generally cleaning a lot of the fouling out but not all. Windex also serves to neutralize the effects of Potassium and Sulphur. Dry patch allow the bore to dry then I will run a patch with a very small amount of Montana X-treme Bore Conditioner on the patch. This is a synthetic product. If you have not seen this product might look it up it is a GREAT product. Last step is to dry patch and get any X-treme out that comes out. At this point the bore is what I call 'semi fouled' and it will remain in that condition the rest of hunting season - UNLESS - the bore gets wet.

If I were to shoot the rifle during the season I will repeat the process at home and continue hunting. If I shoot and reload I still repeat the process.

I know by all standards this sounds terrible because of all the war stories but it works for me.

I would also suggest to you that cleaning the way I do the first shot on a cold clean barrel is normally slightly out of the group at a 100 by 1/2 to 3/4" after that first shot everything tightens out.

All the above is for a inline but yet when I use my LRH barrel - the same process works.

Really hope some of this makes sense...

Idaholewis

Sabotloader, Thank you for that info! That makes good sense and i can see how it would definitely work!! But I wonder how this would work with real blackpowder, or a sub like Pyrodex? A blued barrel will start to rust fairly quickly after being shot with real BP, and I've heard Pyrodex is worse yet? I have no experience to speak of with the Pyrodex, i just recently bought a can of Pyro P to try like Idahoron uses. Swabbing would obviously help a TON, but what about in the barrel Grooves, and the Snail, Patented Breech/Powder Chamber of a Sidelock? I use the blue windex with ammonia as well for my swabbing between shots, I actually mix mine 50/50 Blue Windex/91% isopropyl Alcohol to aid in faster drying. The only Montana Extreme product that i have used is their bore polishing compound and it is REALLY GOOD stuff!! (Would be their Equivalent to JB Bore paste) I will have to get some of the Montana Extreme bore conditioner and give it a try. I Have been wanting to try their copper remover as well in my Centerfires

sabotloader

I am not sure why Ron is using any of the Pyro's - to me - T7 is such a better powder for sub use, burns so much cleaner with caps. Real BP & the Pyros powders are so much more corrosive than T7 + being combined with a blued barrel - I have not got a good answer with a lot of experience. When I shoot PRB's at Rondys using GOEX - I really do about the same routine and I add a routine when I pump flush the Snail, breech/powder chamber of a sidelock by sticking it into tupper ware container of Windex... then do the bore as I normally do. The big thing is to neutralize the residue acids and then keep the bore dry. Corrosion can not occur without moisture. The old boys in the old days knew this and protected their bores by keeping them dry not cleaned.

I did try the Alcohol thing for a period of time and for myself did not find any real advantage so I stopped several years ago. Although there are a lot of people that use the Alcohol routine for a reason.

I have not looked or tried their bore cleaner to see if it was petroleum free. When I want an aggressive bore cleaner I use Barnes CR-10. But in my normal cleaning routine I use Birchwood Casey 2-in-1 Bore Cleaner. It has worked really well but it does have a small amount of BCasey Barricade in it and it does have some petroleum in it.

I have purchased a new product 100% synthetic to try in the future. Hoppes is now making a Hoppes #9 Synthetic Blend that I really want to try.

This doesn't really show you much but this is my cleaning routine for the bore - whether it be an inline or a sidehammer. Of course you can not use the bore snake with a sidehammer but you can just run a X-treme bore conditioner patch instead of the snake with bore conditioner on it. This is all it takes even after a range trip involving up to 20 shots.

idahoron

The reason I don't use T7 was etched in my brain years ago. I did a lot of testing on the P and the T7. At that time I was just starting to paper patched bullets. Up to then I was using pyrodex RS. My 45 was hang firing real bad so I tried the P so it would settle into the snail better and that worked. This day I was shooting my 50. I was out at the range and a buddy of mine was there to shoot his white mountain carbine 50. I was shooting 80 grains of P and the T7 I don't remember the load, But I worked up the grains on the T7 so I had the same FPS. I think I used less T7 to get to where the P was but I don't remember now.

Anyway, my groups showed a real liking for the P and I was done testing. In my testing on my rifle with the paper patched bullets, I found that if I went much over 1300 FPS my 460 gr bullets were not grouping reliably. So staying in that 1300 FPS range was the target.

My buddy wanted to speed test the white mountain carbine. He was not familiar with the T7 and loaded 90 grains, the same as he used of RS. He touched it off and the stock cracked.
Now that stock cracking may have been a fluke. I know that he is not the kind of guy to over tighten the lock screw. His velocity with that short barrel was 1400 if I remember right.

Between that and the fact that the T7 didn't accomplish the same groups as the P did at the same velocity was the reason I stayed with the P.
Now since that first try with the T7 I did end up hardening my lead a bit. I was using pure and now I am using lead that is between 6 and 7 BHN. I do wonder how that would affect the T7 groups.
The last thing I do remember between the two was the "crud" ring left by the T7. I do remember that being another factor with my paper patched bullets. Yes the P does have a crud ring but I can work with it.

sabotloader

T7-2f is about 10% hotter than the Pyros and T7-3f is listed as 15% - but I also know or think I know why it didn't work for you. T7 is to hot for your paper patching probably. I mean physically to hot like probably burns right through your paper. I learned a long time ago it actually melts the bottom of a lead bullet - leaving lead all the way up the bore. Even shooting reduced 60 grain loads with a Round Ball I have to use a lubed wad or I will burn right through the patch....

From my Stainless LRH barrel I found that I needed to use 90 grains to get a really tight group with the 460's but that was 1500 fps - with a shot card under the bullet.

Now that is odd - most of us shooting caps do not get the 'crud ring' I mean I shoot an entire Rondy even using T7 and never patch once. But then again I do not have any petroleum of Teflon products in the bore. T7 will fry both and create a hard ring just under the bullet.

When I shoot T7 with shot gun primers - I do get the ring the primers are just to hot. But a Windex patch walks right through without any problems at all in fact as long as the Windex patch remain somewhat damp I just the same patch over and over.

But now with your post and my mind bringing old information - I really think I do know why you do not use T7 with soft lead and paper patch.... I really wonder though if a shot card on top of the powder and between you paper and bullet would give you better performance.

Question... with a paper patch does the bullet itself ever touch the bore or does it ride all the way out of the bore on the paper like a cloth patch?

I wonder if I can find a picture of one my 460 targets... I will look

Got it



Ballistic Sheet

Idaholewis

Another thing that just now crossed my mind is I don't remember trying the cold clean bore shot with my new tight fitting Grease Groove bullets? I have done a TON of testing over the summer and its easy to lose track! I'm pretty sure my cold clean bore problems were coming from my sized Paper Patched bullets after steam cleaning? I'll have to look at notes and see. Steam cleaning thru the Snail and Patented breech/Powder chamber might not effect the tighter fitting grease groove bullets, patched round ball, and sabots? I am pretty sure my problems were with my sized and patched bullets? Again i will have to dig through my notes, and group pictures

Ok, just did some digging/investigating, The MAJOR cold bore shot issues WERE definitely with my sized (slip fit) Paper Patched bullets after i had steam cleaned through the Snail. I thought i had cured it by popping caps off and fouling the bore with just the caps, while i did have some successes with the caps it was a hit and miss deal, i also tried the Lock eeze moistened patch to simulate a fouled bore, again i had some success but it stil wasn't great. I wish i had taken better notes, but from what i can dig up through my pictures my new full bore Greased conicals were no where near as effected by using the steam cleaner through the snail, The cold bore shots were VERY close to the group, i was popping caps off first to try and simulate a fouled bore with these Full bore conicals as well, Again The cold clean bore shots were very close to my groups. The cold clean bore TOTAL TARGET MISSES were with my Paper Patched and sized bullets.

My best advice if you are using a steam cleaner through the snail and getting that first 8-10" of barrel at the breech end HOT by doing so, is to test and make sure the cold bore shot is right? In a hunting rifle Don't just take for granted that it will be there, test it and make SURE its there!