zmason1002

Hey, new here and to muzzleloaders. I bought a Mountaineer with the bare 209. I'm shooting BH209 75 grains in weight (107 ish grains in volume) I'm using Win209 primers. They are coming out dirty, after the 4th shot they stick in the bolt and I have a hard time getting them out. Is there a different primer I need to use or is something else going on.

Also when I cleaned the gun I found unburnt bh powder sitting in the bp. I shot 7 rounds this time with bh209. The first time I shot 7 Rounds of 90 grains volume T7 fffg. The primers where dirty with it also and stuck after the 4th or 5th shot. I have to pick some out with my pocket knife or smack the gun to get it to come out.

bronko22000

I'd try a different brand of primers. I'm sure you'll get a couple responses on this as some primer manufacturers primer dimensions vary slightly though still within SAAMI specs.
I believe FED 209 primers may solve your blowback issue. But those better versed in inline muzzies will tell you for sure.

MountainDevil54

common issue with this rifle. Something about shims but I am sure others will be along to help.

if not, give knight a call. The W209 primer is supposed to be correct for that rifle.

sabotloader

Definitely let Knight know that your headspace is not a tight as it could be and that your are sticking.

One thing to help identify the problem for Knight. Next time one sticks... close the bolt and pull the trigger - then try to dump the primer out. If it comes out then the because of the headspace the primer is being pushed out of the battery cup and into the nose of the bolt.

If you can find this out for sure it will help Knight fix the problem...

You are using the correct and the longest primer - the BP was designed around the W209.

zmason1002

sounds good. I will try to shoot it this weekend and try the refire and see if it comes out and then contact Knight about it.

zmason1002

I found out my Uncle on my wife's side works for the company that owns Knight, He is also really good friends with the guy (Sam Belloma) that does the warranty work for Knight out of Centerville. I took my gun to him and he told me that its just going to shoot that way unless I switch to the FPJ. I've thought about calling Knight CS, but if Centerville does all of Knights warranty then there is no point in sending it back to him.

Now I will try the Teflon tape and cover the end of the breach plug and hopefully that will push the breach plug back enough to seal the primer. My other question is, I used Teflon tape once in it with T7 FFFg. It took a lot of force to break the bp loose. Will it always be hard to break loose with the tape? would adding bp grease help? Any other thoughts??

sabotloader

Sam is not correct on this particular point.... Call Garry at Knight in Tennessee and tell him your problem. He should then get you a return label to send the rifle back - they are aware of the problem and will fix it by swapping out your bolt housing to match you BP. Also the FPJ is a whole lot dirtier...


You can fix it yourself by installing shims in the primer pocket.

OK finally getting time to get to this.

I am not the best writer in the world so I am hoping this makes sense to most.

Headspace or the lack of can be one of the biggest reasons that a primer from the battery cup is forced up into the hammer hole in the face of the bolt.

If you look carefully at this picture of a Knight NFPJ Breech Plug you can see the SS shim installed in the bottom of the primer pocket to achieve a 'primer crush' and 0 headspace with a given primer. And in my case it is modified to accept W209 primers.




Most new rifles in the Mountaineer series and possibly the new Extreme series have a much tighter 'tolerance' on the depth of the breech plug pocket in the barrel. On the other hand older rifles like the Original DISC the tolerance level was much lower. In those days no-one thought about a clean breech. I have two Original DISC's that the breech plug need to be shimmed to 0.025" to achieve 0 headspace. Even older DISC Extremes/Elites can vary by as much as 10-15 thou.

It seems to me the new Mountaineer series can vary but 0.005" and some will require shimming. Not all of this is dependent on the depth of the BP hole. If the bolt length is off just a little it will greatly effect the head space. Even the rear of the bolt and how it closes can effect headspace. So it really does not have to be one thing.

It really helps if you determine the measurement of what shims you might need to fix your problem before you start shimming. The shims for this process come in 3 thicknesses and 2 OD sizes that you can use.

OD sizes.... there are a group of shims with an OD of 0.241" that will drop right into the primer pocket. With these shims you can just keep adding shims until you feel the primer crush. Then add up the number of shims you have installed and you will know what you might need. The 0.241" will then fall out or can be easily pulled out to empty the primer pocket.

The second OD size shim is a 0.248" shim and will/can pressed into the primer pocket. This shim will stick and stay in the primer pocket - you will not be able to remove it. So before installing these shims make sure you know the size you need to use.

This is a package of 0.0248" x 0.032" shims -probably a size you will never need but they are available.



This picture shows a 0.0248" x 0.005" shim inserted in the top of a BP ready to be driven down with a spent 209 primer and a plastic mallet.



This link should carry you to the McMaster-Carr catalog page for the correct shims

http://www.mcmaster.com/#catalog/118/3249/=10geukw


For the 0.241 OD shim look in the group of shims labeled -> 18-8 Stainless Steel. Three sizes 5 - 16 - 30 thou thickness. I see no reason to get any 0.030 shims, followed only a few would ever need 0.016 shims. The 0.005 is probably the best all around for testing to achieve the correct fit.

For the 0.248" OD shim look in the -> Spring Steel section -> for shim thicknesses of 5 - 15 - 32 thou. These shims can be pressed in for a permanent fit.

An easy way out of all of this is to use high pressure rubber "0" rings... they normally last about 50 shots.

Achieving 0 to near 0 headspace is a real desirable in my mind.

There is another write up on how to actually fit the shims to the BP but I am on the road right now. When I get home I will find that part of the article and post that also.

Shimming Continued

This is the method that I use to get to correct amount of shimming in place.

With the breech plug installed snuggly in the rifle
1. Remove the bolt assembly from the rifle.
2. Remove the hammer/firing pin assembly from the bolt
3. Reinstall the bolt housing in the rifle.
a. When you push the bolt forward and release the handle it should just fall down into the closed position – ne resistance at all.
b. Next install a primer in the nose of the bolt and repeat the test.
i. If the bolt handle falls to the bottom again then you need to into install shims in the primer pocket to get the correct headspace.
ii. If the handle does not fall to the bottom and you encounter some resistance the head space is probably near correct. It should take some effort to push the bolt handle down.
If the handle falls to the bottom with no resistance with a primer installed you will now need to find out how many shims you are going to need to install. For this operation I use the .214 x .005 OD shims. Also during this process the breech plug should be very clean and DRY, so the .241 shims can be easily removed.

1. Remove the breech plug and drop 1 of the shims into the primer pocket. Use a spent primer to make sure the shim is pushed all the way down and sitting on the primer shelf.
2. Install the breech plug in the rifle and repeat the steps above. Make sure the .241 shim does not fall out of the BP while doing all of this.
3. If you still do not get any ‘primer crush’ install a second shim and repeat the process.
4. When you do get ‘primer crush’ them pick out 4 new primers and repeat the test on each primer to see if all 4 feel as they are ‘crushing’.
5. Remove the breech plug and get all of the .241 shims out of the primer pocket. Count the shims to make sure you have them all out.

With this information you now know how many .248x.005 shims you need to install to achieve ‘primer crush’ and 0 head space.

When installing the .248 shims – place the breech plug on a smooth flat surface.
1. Place a .248 shim in the top of the BP primer pocket.
2. With a pair of needle nose pliers grip a spent primer place it on top of the .248 shim and with a small mallet tap the primer and shim down into the primer pocket.
3. Make sure it bottoms out and is sitting on the primer shelf.
4. Install the BP and bolt housing and test for ‘primer crush’
5. Repeat this process until you have achieved 0 head space.

If you do not want to purchase the extra .241 shims you can use the .248 process one shim at a time to shim your BP. Just remember once they are installed – they are not in most cases ever coming back out.

So be careful and go one shim at a time.

zmason1002

What would be better, me calling and sending it in or shimming it my self. I'm hesitant to send it anywhere. I really didn't want to let my Uncle take it to the guy but thought it would save me some hassle. Guess not lol. I don't have an issue with shimming it, but I don't want to void warranty or anything either.

I've read several of your posts and even though I don't know you I would be more comfortable sending it to you than anyone else right at the moment lol. If you say its better to call them and send it back I will but if you say I wouldn't have a problem with warranty from shimming it, I will just shim it and be done. Doesn't seem like it will be to big of a deal to shim it. Will shimming it cause any accuracy issues?

Grouse45

I would not send it back to Knight. I would pick up some CCI primers and shim your plug to fit. The CCI regular primers not mag will be the most consistent primers and you'll be pretty much set. And before you shim the plug I would have someone drill it out and put a vent liner in so the plug will last forever.

sabotloader

[QUOTE=zmason1002;4253639]What would be better, me calling and sending it in or shimming it my self. I'm hesitant to send it anywhere. [quote]

Personally... You bought a new rifle and it should function as designed. So yes, I would contact Knight - make them aware of the problem. I am confident they will fix the rifle. The big thing is to request a return voucher so you are not paying for the return. It is a simple fix but they do need the barreled action to fix it correctly. It really does not take much time for the repair.

Sam is and was a very good smith for Knight and still does some of their work but he is not totally up-to-date on the new rifles.

That certainly could be a concern but I do not think it would cause you a warranty problem.

I did add the second portion of shimming to the write up today... not the best writer in the world but hopefully it makes sense.

I would certainly shim it for you but shipping back and forth is not that inexpensive.

I think you would be better off to have Knight complete the fix. They will just replace the bolt housing with a new one that is a few thou longer than the one you have.

Whatever you decide works for me!