Brianfpr7502

I am new to black power. I have been shooting for weeks now, in prep for a black power deer and separate elk hunt.

I shoot a CVA Acurra V2. 100 gr T7 powder, 245 gr powerbelt ammo. I have a medium range Nikon scope.

At the range I am using a lead sled sighting stand. Every shot I use 2 wet swabs and one dry. I also swab the breach plug and use pipe cleaners inside. I do this between each and every round.

I started at 25 yards, then 50, and then 100 yards. At the 100 yard mark I will have 2 similar shots and then I have a random "flyer" that is 4-5 inches off the mark. It is a significant difference.

I clean the gun the same between each shot, load it in the same exact way, and hold dead on the target.

I am super frustrated.

Is this normal? How can I gain consistency? Is there a better combo of round and power? Am I making a rookie mistake somewhere in my process?

What type of grouping should I be expecting? 1 inch pattern/grouping?

Any help is greatly appreciated!!!

Muley Hunter

So, you're shooting a clean barrel everytime? Most guns won't be consistent on a clean barrel.

What powder are you using?

The 245 gr Powerbelt isn't close to enough bullet for elk. Try the 338 gr Platinum if you must use PB's. There's much better choices in bullets.

d.winsor

Since you are new to muzzleloading I am going to give you both barrels. First I would say to correct your shooting for now I would try cleaning between every shot. I had first shot fliers and this got rid of them for me after I tried everything else.
Your barrel is fouled, so you take a solvent patch (I like hoppe's elite gun cleaner) use both sides of the patch in your bore, now use a dry patch, save the patch. Then use a slightly lubed patch (I like Slip 2000 gun lube) to the bore, now take your saved patch and use the clean side to swab the bore. Save this patch to use as your solvent patch on the next shot.
If you are shooting the Original Breech plug in the gun you will need a .116 or a #32 drill bit to clean the Channel. If you are using the BH 209 plug you will need a 1/8" drill bit to clean the flash channel of the breech plug. Clean the flash channel about every 6 shots.

Now I am going to giver you the post I promised, use what you need and forget the rest. I talk a lot about BH 209 powder and CVA guns, I have an Accura V2 also, but you can apply much of it to many Models of muzzleloaders.

Use the information you need, forget the rest. Rifle Manufactures, and models are at the bottom of this page.
POWDER:
I would check and see what the mfg. recommends for any gun you select, FF or FFF, you can call the Manufacture and ask them before you buy a gun. Or read the manual after you buy the gun.

Here is an explanation of different powders http://www.chuckhawks.com/blackpowder_roundup_2010.htm one powder I would recommend, is Western Powders Blackhorn 209: http://www.blackhorn209.com I have shot them all and BH 209 is the best. The powder is so potent that the manufacture recommends 120 grains as the maximum charge, even if the gun you purchase is designed to shoot 150 grains of other substitutes. Some older guns are not designed to shoot BH 209 or 150 grains of other substitutes. Here is the link to Western powders BH 209 article by Randy Wakeman, I don’t agree with everything he says but it will give you a good Idea of BH 209. http://www.chuckhawks.com/most_blackhorn_209.htm . One thing, If you decide to get a CVA and shoot BH 209, You need to buy a Blackhorn 209 breech plug from CVA http://www.cva.com/CVA-store.php?sho...eech%20Plugs#l or a western Powders BH 209 breech plug for CVA guns. https://www.westernpowders.com/ The Accura V2 CVA BH 209 plug takes a 1/8” drill bit to clean the carbon out of the flash channel (area under the primer), the OEM CVA Breech Plug, which is designed to shoot pellets, takes a .116 or a #32 drill bit, other models may vary drill bit size. The western powders breech plug for CVA comes with the proper drill bit. My T/C Pro Hunter came factory ready for BH 209 or any other powder or pellet, it takes a 1/8” drill bit (SIZE COMPLEMENTS OF ENCORE) to clean the flash channel, and other T/C Models may take a different drill bit size. Here is a link for tools to clean the flash channel and the flash hole in a breech plug, at $15.95 the tools are cheap. (FREE SHIPPING) http://www.plugcleaner.com/ you adjust the collar in the kit to keep the drill bit off the flash hole. If the kit listed does not have your drill bit size call 440-238-6050 or e-mail them at [email protected] . If you just want to use a drill bit wrap electrical tape around the shank of the bit until you can grip the bit firmly, then twist it in the flash channel using only finger pressure, about once every 6 shots. Be careful as too much pressure could damage the flash hole. Also not enough pressure will not clean the carbon out near the flash hole. Carbon can be very hard.
Randy says to use an electric drill every 100 shots! I would not do this, you would probably damage the flash hole in the breech plug, if you cleaned the flash channel between every 100 shots, and you would probably need an electric drill. If there is any doubt as to the size of a drill bit to clean the Breech Plug on the gun you select, Call the manufacturer of the gun, you can do this before you make the purchase.
BULLETS:
One bullet to try would be the Hornady #44280 .44 Cal 300 grain XTP with the Harvester green crush rib sabot, or another bullet is the Hornady #45202 SST/ML 250 grain bullet with the Thompson Center Superglide Sabot. I use 100 grains of BH 209 with these 2 bullet combinations. Accuracy is very good, start with 100 or 110 grains of BH 209 powder, if you have trouble vary the powder charge first, then vary the sabots with the bullet you are using. You might try varying the brand of powder you are shooting if you really want to shoot a particular bullet. After that I would say your gun just doesn’t like the bullet. Select another bullet and start over. Use the combination that gives the best group to initially sight your muzzleloader in. Those bullets are both adequate to hunt deer if they group for you. I’d use the Hornady XTP at 100 yards or less, the SST/ML you could probably stretch it out a bit depending on your group. The reason I would recommend these bullets to sight in with is because they are relatively cheap, you can buy both in bulk and sabots at LG Outdoors, harvester, or MMP and other places. You could sight your gun in and get experience without shooting expensive bullets. Then you can select something like the Barnes TEZ 250 grain bullet or Parker, etc. I don’t think it would take you as long to sight in the Barnes TEZ, once you have sighted your gun with the cheaper bullets, probably just a few simple adjustments. Initially as you sight your rifle in, roughly adjust your scope or sights to the center of the target, all you want to do is find which bullet and charge combination is the most accurate. After you find your bullet and powder combination that is the most accurate in your gun, adjust your sights or scope for POA and POI. I personally use the Barnes Spitfire TEZ 250 grain bullet, it is an all copper bullet, and it is a flat base bullet that comes with a blue sabot. You can buy Barnes bullets in bulk and use MMP Sabots, as an example if the Blue sabot and TEZ doesn’t work out try the MMP Black HPH-24 sabot with the Barnes spitfire TEZ, (I think the blue sabot is also a MMP sabot, sold to everyone else in black). Here is a link to buy various Barnes and other bullets & sabots in bulk. (Compliments of Encore), http://www.smokelessmz.com/bullets.html here is a link to choose sabots for Barnes Bullets. (If the link doesn’t work, if you really want to see the information you are going to have to open another window and manually enter the link, into your browser, Copy/Paste will not work. It is worth the effort) file:///H:/Best%20Accuracy%20For%20Your%20Muzzleloader%20%20% 20Barnes%20Bullets.htm Here is a link from Barnes with Bullet and Velocity information using numerous Powders and Bullets. http://www.barnesbullets.com/images/...loaderData.pdf This link does not contain information for the Barnes TEZ, this is an older link, TEZ bullet and velocity information is available when you purchase TEZ Bullets in 15 per pack, you can also get information on various bullet Velocities and with powder charges of 100, 110 and 120 grains of Blackhorn 209 powder on this site http://www.blackhorn209.com/wp-conte...loaderdata.pdf The TEZ is very accurate and expand at low velocities and at high velocities. I use 110 grains of BH 209, (a lot of people use Triple 7 or Pyrodex) with this bullet, it groups well at 100 yards and will stretch out to 200 yards, farther than that depending on the shooter and group obtained while sighting in your gun. If you start shooting the TEZ (Or any other Bullet) I would pick a good hunting load of 100 or 110 grains of powder, I personally wouldn’t hunt deer with less than 100 grains of any powder, some people shoot 80 or 90 grains of powder and do well. Then vary the sabots if you are having trouble grouping. If you have tried the sabot that comes with the TEZ, and other sabots that will fit the bullet. I would say your gun doesn’t like the bullet. Move on and try another bullet. It will cost a lot in powder to try all combinations of grains of powder to use for a particular bullet trying to find what grains of a particular powder will group with a particular bullet, and sabot. You might end up with a load you don’t want to hunt with because it might be too light to hunt deer.
I would not use a powerbelt bullet, I do not think they are for beginners. Too much powder and they may disintegrate, too little and they will pencil through deer. The platinum powerbelt bullets are for magnum loads of 100 grains or more of powder or pellet. Many people swear by the powerbelts. I would not use T/C Maxie bullets, they have absolutely no expansion and will pencil through a deer. I used a 430 grain Maxie bullet to hunt deer, and killed many deer with the Maxie, with a .54 Caliber T/C Renegade and 100 grains of Pyrodex powder, it would knock your teeth out. Sabots may be obtained from Harvester https://www.harvestermuzzleloading.com/ Or MMP: http://mmpsabots.com/ If you need help selecting a sabot call Harvester or MMP and they will help you match the bullet you want to shoot with a sabot. Ask them for a couple of recommendations as if one sabot does not work with your gun you will have another sabot to try. If all else fails, select another bullet and or sabot. Here is a good supplier for Bullets and a lot of other things related to muzzleloading. http://www.midsouthshooterssupply.co...?CurrentPage=1
RIFLES:
I am partial to CVA guns, I just like them. I have an Accura V2 that works great for me. There are 4 of the muzzleloading manufactures listed below. The only gun I could not recommend is the T/C Pro Hunter. Mine shoots great, I have had no issues, not in hunting or on the range. But I have read posts that indicate a problem with accuracy from some and no help from T/C. People modify the T/C Pro Hunter using aftermarket parts and also to include cutting off the end of the barrel known as the QLA. If one has problems they can cure all known issues with just $35.00 worth of parts (information provided by Encore), if one can do the work themselves. Not including cutting off the QLA if needed. If you can’t do the work yourself it will probably cost you for a gun shop to do it for you, modifications would probably void your warranty with Thompson center. A beginner has no business buying a T/C Pro Hunter, The beginner has too much to learn and does not need to try to trouble shoot a muzzleloader being inaccurate, other than cleaning procedures, Bullet selection, powder selection or grains of powder to use.

http://www.cva.com/ Very good fast customer service, I think the best value for the money, accurate to. I own the Accura V2, CVA gives you 17 days to shoot it, if it is not the best gun you have ever shot, CVA will refund your money. If you decide to purchase a CVA muzzleloader and decide at some point you need a shim kit, here it is, http://www.cva.com/CVA-Store-View.php?id=504 be sure to read all instructions.
http://www.knightrifles.com/ scroll to the bottom of the page to access all of the options. I have heard their customer service is lacking and that it can be hard to get a hold of them when needed, depending on what time of year it is. I have also heard their guns are accurate and kind of pricey, and harder to clean than a break action gun. I have never owned one of the knight muzzleloaders.
https://www.traditionsfirearms.com/c.../Muzzleloaders Traditions has good customer service, once I read a review about one of their muzzleloaders, there were a couple of minor negative comments, and as I remember the muzzleloader reviewed was accurate.
https://www.tcarms.com/firearms/ Scroll down to see muzzleloaders. Except for the Pro Hunter I have not heard much negative about the T/C line of guns. I think their customer service sucks. They are pricey.

I would consider looking around for prices if you find a muzzleloader you are interested in. The manufacture sites tend to be on the high dollar side. Here is one site that I hear is pretty good to deal with and has good deals on rifles: http://www.muzzle-loaders.com/muzzleloader-rifles.php When you find the rifle you want google it by Mfg. and model name, you will get many retail sites that you can compare pricing and reviews. Google a specific brand and/or type and/or caliber of bullet, you can compare prices and possibly find the bullet in bulk.

Brianfpr7502

I am shooting T7 powder.

Yes clean barrel every shot.

My deer hunt is first so that's why the lighter bullet is the choice right now.

If a clean barrel will not produce the consistency I am after what is your suggestion. I am not totally set on powerbelt ammo.

BarnesAddict

I'd bet a cola, that if you get rid of the powerbelts and shoot a good bullet, things will change. Lighter bullets mean less energy, and you can certainly step up with no problems. Depending on the regulations where you plan on hunting, there are much better bullets, both with and without sabots.

Your problem with groups, has been an issue with some muzzleloaders since the Pb came to be. IMO... change bullets.

Brianfpr7502

I will take that bet! Any suggestions for bullets?

cayugad

The swabbing between shots with T7 is a GREAT IDEA. It removes the crud ring that can form. So keep that up. What I would suggest is...

Get rid of the powerbelts. Try some Shockwaves 250 grain or Hornady XTP's 240 or 300 grain for now. Also, drop the charge down to 90 grains once and see what happens.

Also a lead sled while a nice shooting platform, and variance of how your placing that rifle, might be causing the flier. I don't know. I never use a lead sled.

As for what kind of groups you can expect... 3-4 inches at 100 yard is not uncommon, but some days I shoot much better then that.

I shoot an Optima with a scope. I shoot 90 grains of powder. I also shoot the 200 grain 40 caliber Shockwaves in a blue sabot. I can normally shoot a 3 inch group. But then I seldom shoot at 100 yards.

Phil from Maine

A friend of mine says he uses 90 grains of powder and it works like a charm..

1874sharpsshooter

Sounds to me like a crown problem . Check the crown for even the smallest ding .

nchawkeye

Ditch the PowerBelts and the 777...Stick with loose powder in either Pyrodex RS or better yet, Goex FFF...

Go to either a .44 or .45 caliber pistol bullet inside the appropriate sabot...

I like the .429 300gr Hornady XTPs inside a Harvester plain green sabot but they are hard to find right now...Many use the .429, 300gr or you can go to the 250 or 300gr .451 Hornadys...Then go to a black sabot, I use the MMP-24 in this situation...

Powder charge is usually 80-90grs depending upon the rifle...

And, I always clean between shots and sight in with a clean barrel as that's what I hunt with...