Grouse45

I noticed on another thread Flounder33 mentioned his favorite inlines are plunger style. I would really like to hear other opinions on this as well.

In my opinion plunger style inlines with a 209 primer are just plain dangerous. The same plunger type gun with a #11 ignition i think is great for those that need to use it.

Again, just my opinion and i would like to here yours.

mountaineer magic

All my plunger guns are #11 except for the new knights of the kids. Their littleHorns are plunger with a 209 so I hope they aren't dangerous. The BigHorn is a plunger gun and it is a 209. Interesting thought though.

cayugad

I own eight plunger style inlines. Two of them use 209 ignition systems. I see nothing dangerous about them. Now my Whites use #11 although I could put the 209 breech plug in them, but choose not to. The Black Diamond XR could use any of the three ignitions and again, I use 209 primers. I have shot hundreds of rounds through the rifle and never saw any problem other then when I used BlackHorn 209 powder. But note, the powder was not made for that rifle. My CVA Stag Horn Magnum uses 209 and again, I have not seen any problems with it either.

I am curious Grouse as to what you find dangerous with a plunger style inline using 209 primers.

sabotloader

Oh man! have you opened another can of worms...

Open breech plunger guns or even the older open breech bolt appearing guns such as the Remington 700ml, Ruger 77, and several CVA's are really a plunger action inside the bolt housing.

Any of these guns I considered somewhat of a safety concern when using a 209 primer either bare prime or a primer inside a FPJ. Not sure I would go to the dangerous label, but certainly a concern for ME...

If you look at the design of the 'plunger gun' hammers including the older bolt type guns. The plunger has a cavity to cover the explosion of the cap on the post and even when blow back causes the hammer move back from the nipple the cap tends to stay inside the cavity and at the end of the shot you may finds parts of the cap laying in the bottom of reciever.

MOST hammer assemblies that shoot a 209 primer do not have this same cavity to the extent the cap hammers have.

I have shot a lot of 209's from different styles of plunger guns. Normally using T7 powder you do not get the blow back pressure on the nose of the primer you can get with BH a progressive burn powder. But even then the only way I would consider shooting a plunger style gun with an open breech is with a FPJ around the primer to hold it together or with a metal shroud that coompletely surrounds and contains the possible flying parts.

This picture shows the shroud installed on a Remington Bolt gun which is really a plunger gun... This metal shroud keeps all the parts in the breech area - IF they were to come apart or be pushed out of the breech plug.



If you look at these bare primers closely in these pictures I think you can see the possibility of the possible flying part idea...



If you look at this picture of FPJ's you can see that the primers tend to say intact even though the FPJ is blown off the post and may become somewhat of a projectile itself.



I do have some additional pictures of this problem on my other computer that I will add as soon as I can get to the other computer.

Just to add, I personally after all the experiances that i have had prefer to shoot caps on a plunger - even though I violate that statement with the White Umag. But after shooting it last week I had all but decided to move back to a #11 in that gun also...

Stay tuned for some additional pictures of a MK 85 shooting bare primers... not good...

cayugad

Granted the primers could come apart from the back pressure. And I could lie and say this is one reason I seldom shoot large charges of powder out of plunger guns. But I shoot smaller charges for accuracy reasons only. If a magnum charge brought me accuracy, believe me.. I would be shooting them. But in all honesty.. I have shot stout loads out of the Black Diamond XR (150 grains of loose powder) and the primers stayed in tact.

sabotloader

OK I found the pictures of a MK-85 outing...

The picture says 100 grains of T7 but my notes say 110 grains.

There is also no doubt in my mind that if I used a lighter bullet or back the powder back down - this would not be an issue... but even then the situation always exists because you just never know...

But here are the pics....



Now I also want you to know that this same load with a #11 cap works great and while the cap is in pieces it is all inside the cavity of the hammer.

sabotloader

And I would say they do because the breech plug allows the pressure to vent off enough before pushing the primer or the entire assembly out of the primer pocket... but we pay for that venting with amount of carbon found in the breech and bolt area....

WCW

Before becoming disabled my wife of many years was a plaintiff's attorney who enjoyed an excellent reputation among her peers. I asked her if she had ever head of a action being filed against a gun manufactured because of a primer disintegrating. She had not so out of curiosity I went to West Law to see how many had been filed. Any way I attempted to shepardize the subject I drew a blank. If plunger action guns presented any inherit flaw that would cause injury to an individual Traditions and CVA would not be marketing them now There would have been a massive recall of guns by the manufactures if just a few sought monetary gain by filing punitive actions.

I queried my gunsmith on the subject and he feels that if it were to happen it would most likely be caused by a defective breach plug that should be replaced immediately, improperly seated load or an excessive amount of propellent. He went on to say that multiple of thousands of plunger action guns are in use today and he had never heard of this problem arising.

In my humble opinion to categorically brand any type of fire arm as unsafe based on one's personal experience and observation without seeking an experts input is beyond ridiculous and a disservice to others.

flounder33

I like my plunger style guns. I use percussion caps in all of them.
I guess I like them for a few reasons, mostly because I just have a fun time shooting them which is what its all about.
The plunger style guns are a simple, proven design. A little dirty yes. Who cares. If I was to worry about that I may as well shoot a centerfire.
The plunger style guns I own are either White rifles with Wilson barrels or my Knight mk 85's made before they used the Green Mountain barrels. Two of them have Lothar Walther barrels and the other is made by Bill Wiseman.
I think all these rifles have triggers that are better than you get on any brand name muzzleloader you might buy today. They are accurate to say the least. I don't feel they are dangerous but I know their limits.
I guess that sums up why I love my plunger style inlines.
The End

Grouse45

I don't like metal hitting my face. Other then that nothing at all. I can video tape a Knight, CVA, and a T/C throwing metal from the 209 primer out of the open breech area.

I would highly suggest nobody used more then 100grns of powder by volume and a 250grn bullet. Here again just my opinion and people can and will do what they want.