.458 Bullets?

[OzarkPA]

On a recent suggestion regarding Harvester Scorpion PT Gold bullets - I was reading the blog associated there: http://harvestermlhunter.blogspot.co...combo-for.html

And he stated that he was going to be trying .458 rounds:

One combination I am looking forward to doing more with in the future is with .458" diameter bullets, such as the 300-grain all-copper Barnes SOCOM, the 300-grain all-brass Lehigh bullet, and the 325-grain Hornady FTX. I've been loading and shooting these bullets in my Knight "Long Range Hunter", shooting 120-grains of Blackhorn 209, and have found they make hard-hitting elk combinations that shoots well under an inch at a hundred yards with regularity. While the black .50x.45 "Crush Rib" Sabot has been designed to be loaded with a .451-.452" diameter bullet, it still loads well with the .006-.007" larger diameter .458" bullet. In fact, these bullets with that sabot load easier than the "standard" sabot and .451-.452" bullet combinations I shot and hunted with for years.

(Note: When shooting the 300-grain Barnes SOCOM, I rely on the yellow .50x.45 "Crush Rib" sabot to accomodate the the slight boat-tailed base of this bullet.)

I couldn't pull up a search on the forums on .458 so wasn't sure if folks were trying this or not and how the ballistics compare .451 vs. .458 for long distance (and assuming muzzle fps is similar for similar weight bullets, regardless of diameter-"ish").

[cayugad]

Sabotloader I believe shoots them in his .52 caliber Knight. I also shoot them in my .50 calibers. Knight makes a sabot (MMP) that fits the .457-8 bullet. I cast these out of pure lead. They weight in out of pure lead at 421 grains give or take. They actually are good shooters, but I never shot them past 100 yards. I also size them down to a .451 and then shoot them out of my Model 97 White .451 rifle as a conical.

[Semisane]

how the ballistics compare .451 vs. .458 for long distance (and assuming muzzle fps is similar for similar weight bullets, regardless of diameter-"ish").

Given the same weight, a smaller diameter bullet will have a better Ballistic Coefficient. According to Speer, the BC of the 300 grain .452 Deep Curl is 0.233, and the BC of the 300 grain .458 JHP is 0.204. That difference isn't enough to get excited about.

[HuntAway]

I've started experimenting with them with my Lyman DeerStalker .50 flintlock.

Here's a plate I shot using 350 gr Hornady RN Interlocks with MMP Orange sabots.



I think there's some potential there. Especially with faster twist in-lines.

I have also shot .458 Noslers Partitions but they're a thing of the past now.

HA

[Gm54-120]

I doubt you would notice any measurable difference in the slightly lower BC of a similar weight 458. You gain the advantage of "closer to bore" sizing and rifle bullet construction vs a pistol bullet. The majority of 458s we would use in a ML are made for 45/70 speeds which are a great match for ML speeds.

In the 458s, i shoot the Barnes 300gr SOCOM which is made for roughly 1900fps MV, the 325gr FTX which is loaded upto 2300fps by Hornady and the Lehigh 275gr which probably will perform best at impacts of 1400fps or higher. The SOCOM and big FTX have BCs of .230 or more if that matters. I like them mainly because they shoot very well for me and have plenty of knock down for any game i currently hunt. Plus i get the FTXs really cheap from a local supplier.

I got 100 of the 458-275gr Lehighs recently so they are going to get a better workout. I only had some sample packs before and no option for shooting them faster than common ML speeds.

[OzarkPA]

Well..... I was wondering... aren't many of those bullets are 'rifle' bullets? I was kind of wondering why we use pistol bullets instead of rifle bullets in our ML..

[Semisane]

I was kind of wondering why we use pistol bullets instead of rifle bullets in our ML..

Well now, that's a good question Ozark. And a logical one too.

I suspect it has to do with the thought processes of whoever developed the first muzzle loader sabot/bullet combinations. Considering the velocity limits of black powder and black powder substitutes, the rate of twist and velocities required to stabilize bullets of different weights and lengths, and the properties of the polymers used for sabots, some smart people probably concluded that short bullets in the 240 to 250 weight range would likely perform best. Those kinds of bullets in suitable calibers are typically pistol bullets. (Anyway, that's my guess.)

Here's a good question. Does anyone know what was and who produced the very first commercial bullet/sabot match for muzzle loaders?

[Gm54-120]

Here's a good question. Does anyone know what was and who produced the very first commercial bullet/sabot match for muzzle loaders?

The first i ever saw were a odd two piece sabot from T/C that also has a felt wad on the bottom. They came in tubes with the bullets/sabots "assembled". IIRC they used a 240 or 250gr XTP.

T/C Break O Way sabots


The rest of your answer to the question is probably correct. Subs and sabot design have improved a bit since then and now we have many more options. Back then though, even a 209 primer in a ML was rare and slower twists were very common vs today's inlines. Lower velocities and slower twist made it nearly impossible for a long bullet to stabilize. Pistol bullets were/are usually shorter and the fps was a fair match for magnum pistol speeds.

This is a pretty good link to some the history.
http://www.chuckhawks.com/muzzleloading_bullets.htm

[50calty]

Well according to Toby Bridges, Sabots have been around for ages. Especially in Shotgun Slugs dated back 30 years ago. The first really documented sabot was in the 1980s with Del Ramsey aka MMP. There is a whole chapter about it in Toby Bridges book High Peformance Muzzleloading Big Game Rifles.