breaking the rules about cast bullets and muzzleloaders

corey012778 · 03-16-2011, 10:13 PM

on friday I am heading to the range for an inline conical conical day. shooting the 45cal and 50cal lee reals. thing being, out of Wheel weight lead. The major rule is us pure lead or close to pure lead in muzzleloaders only. the guns, my knight usak with an .504 bore and my win apex with an .454 bore.

50cal lee reals both 250gr and 320gr drop out at .507 (top band)
45cal lee reals 250gr drop out at .455.

if both load right, could be my pinking rounds for off season work.

powders:
knight usak 80grs of 777 2f (20total lane tubes)

win apex 80grs of APP 3f (10 tubes)

also going to play with the 45cal lee minie with 100grs of app 3f (10 tubes)

most likely I won't shoot 40 rounds lol

HEAD0001 · 03-16-2011, 10:32 PM

Corey there are certain rules that are like certain old "horse and buggy laws". OBSOLETE. IMO using WW in conicals is one of those obsolete ideas. I believe it had a place over 100 or 200 years ago when soft steel was used for barrels. But with todays modern barrels I think it is just a "Wife's Tale".

I have been shooting WW in conicals and lead round balls for years with absolutley no problem.

The only real difference is that slightly harder lead will cast at a slightly larger size than what pure lead willl cast. But we are talking .001's or less. So a properly sized bullet for your bore is drastically more imprtant than the actual alloy of the lead.

I would bet a dollar to a donut that if you have your bullets sized properly, you will notice absolutely zero difference between WW and pure lead. Just my opinion. Tom.

pluckit · 03-17-2011, 02:16 AM

So what is the difference between shooting a conical made from wheel weights and shooting a copper plated conial, or platinum for that matter, like Powerbelts? Obviously none of them are pure lead. A round ball shouldn't matter since it doesn't touch the bore anyway. Could it have anything to do with the expansion of the lead as it's being pushed down the bore by the hot gas from the powder? Apparently that expansion is needed from Powerbelts for the bullet to contact the rifling properly.

lemoyne · 03-17-2011, 05:45 AM

My experience is that in a tight fitting round ball is where it does matter it will cut the patch in loading and slip easier.

Gm54-120 · 03-17-2011, 06:15 AM

Ive shot a few Maxis made from lead that were harder than pure. They shot fine in my old LK93 with some moly lube and Liquid Alox mixed. I was even using upto 100gr charges of BH209 and a wad. Ive got a few hard cast 300gr 45s sized to fit my 45s that i will try sometime for a better review but if a properly sized sabotless jacketed bullet can shoot well, i don't see why a harder lead bullet with the correct charge/size cant give fairly good results too.

WW lead is roughly 11-12 BHN so it might just work depending on the gun and its type/depth of the rifling. Hornady makes some really cheap .454cal 255gr? bullets for cowboy action that are harder than pure. Those might be a cheap way to test the theory. IMO sizing and lube becomes more critical than it does with softer lead.

Muley Hunter · 03-17-2011, 07:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HEAD0001

Corey there are certain rules that are like certain old "horse and buggy laws". OBSOLETE. IMO using WW in conicals is one of those obsolete ideas. I believe it had a place over 100 or 200 years ago when soft steel was used for barrels. But with todays modern barrels I think it is just a "Wife's Tale".

They had wheel weights 200 years ago?

corey012778 · 03-17-2011, 09:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pluckit

So what is the difference between shooting a conical made from wheel weights and shooting a copper plated conial, or platinum for that matter, like Powerbelts? Obviously none of them are pure lead. A round ball shouldn't matter since it doesn't touch the bore anyway. Could it have anything to do with the expansion of the lead as it's being pushed down the bore by the hot gas from the powder? Apparently that expansion is needed from Powerbelts for the bullet to contact the rifling properly.

powerbelts are just plated pure lead conical with an poly gas check, there is really not much plating on powerbelts. I can crush one with pliers.

you think about it. FPBs have to sized to fit most bores. thor sends out sample packs for testing the fit..

HEAD0001 · 03-17-2011, 03:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Muley Hunter

They had wheel weights 200 years ago?

Wagon Wheel??? Tom.

Muley Hunter · 03-17-2011, 03:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HEAD0001

Wagon Wheel??? Tom.

You think they balanced wagon wheels with wheel weights?

HEAD0001 · 03-17-2011, 03:14 PM

Pure WW will obturate just fine in a MZ. The same as it does in a 45 Colt or 45-70 in a rifle. I shoot a bunch of WW in 45 Colt and 45-70 with a 300 or 400 grain bullet at 1200-1400fps. With perfect obturation of WW.

Thor sends out sample packs for one reason. They also realize that proper sizing of their bullet is much more important than the alloy of the lead. It matters not how soft your lead is if your bullet is not sized properly.

I have shot a bunch of cast bullets in MZ's and CF rifles. Accuracy, leading, and proper obturation always comes down to one basic variable. SIZING. With lube being number 2. And alloy a far distant proerty unless you ar really pushing it hard. Then harder lead is better, not worse. And a GC is necessary if you really speed them up. Tom.