Yep, it was rust. Or so I thought. Not sure. What now?

7.62NATO · 10-20-2010, 07:55 PM

Okay, very long story short, I have been using BH209 in my T/C Omega from the very first time I shot it about 3 weeks or so ago, and I have taken it to the range a total of 3 times to get it ready for hunting season (Oct 30). I cleaned it thoroughly after shooting the first 2 times. The third time, this past Saturday, I did NOT clean it, and have been anguishing over the question, "To clean, or not to clean?"

Here's why: In a nutshell, with a clean barrel fouled with two primer shots, my gun was shooting 3.5 inch groups or so at 100 yards. Not acceptable. Over time and with no swabbing, the groups shrank a little, and then suddenly, around shot 20, the groups suddenly shrank to an inch, perfectly acceptable. Given that was the last chance I'd have to go to the range before the season, I didn't want to lose that accuracy by cleaning the gun. But I didn't want my gun to rust, either!

Okay, BH209 is supposed to be non-corrosive and non-hydroscopic (specifically says so on the site), though I was advised by a few here to go ahead and clean anyway. With all of my centerfire guns/rifles, I always keep the actions clean but never clean the barrels unless 1) accuracy deteriorates or 2) humidity/rain/snow during shooting or hunting dictates that they should be cleaned. NONE of my barrels exhibit anything that could be remotely considered rust. Given that I keep hearing that BH209 is smokeless powder in disguise, I decided NOT to clean in favor of keeping an accurate weapon.

Well, today is day 4 since visiting the range. I cracked out the Omega and took a peak down the muzzle. There seemed to be a brownish colored ring at the very top of the muzzle. Further examination with a flashlight revealed a few brownish specks in the bore (further down the muzzle but before the rifling). The lands appeared to have the same brownish color to them. I wet a patch in solvent and put it over my finger just to rub the very inside tip of the muzzle and the patch came out brownish, and the ring in the bore was still very much intact. Scrubbed a little bit with a brush and it was still there. So, I decided it must be rust, and now have it soaking in solvent.

The thing is, when I brought the first two patches through, they were just black. No brown whatsoever. But I still see traces of the ring and spots, and the lands still seem brownish. Maybe I just didn't pay close enough attention to what things looked like immediately after shooting and my paranoia has set in. Could it be anything but rust? I suppose it doesn't matter, because the thing is being cleaned regardless.

I don't know how confident I'm going to be on opening day. I'm wondering if I should even go, but I know I will. The thing is, once the groups tightened up, I did some minor scope adjustments. Meaning, I don't know approximately the first POI will be vs POA in a clean barrel.

The thing that makes me sad is that I freaked out tonight and cleaned the gun, regardless of whether it was rust or not. I valued the tool more than the entire reason I have the tool. TO HUNT.

MountainDevil54 · 10-20-2010, 08:14 PM

its rust. My brother in laws wolf did that after 3 weeks left uncleaned. Blackhorn recommends you run an oiled patch down the bore if you are not going to clean it for a certain period of time.

After we cleaned the rust out of his gun and oiled it, he kept getting white corrosion in the QLA area no matter how we cleaned it and oiled it. I ended up using 00 steel wool and then Bore Coated it. No problems since then with rust or corrosion.

7.62NATO · 10-20-2010, 08:31 PM

Blackhorn does recommend that, but the reason they state is that BH209 is not a bore protectant. Oh really???? The "logic" being that, if your bore was moist prior to shooting, the moisture would get trapped by the fouling. Well, duh, that's how it is with ANYTHING you shoot. And that's why I clean my barrels if it is humid, raining, etc. And that's why my DIRTY barrels have NO rust. The non-corrosive claim, assuming there is rust in my barrel, is pure B.S.

Quoting you from another thread (perhaps you thought you were posting this comment in this one):

Quote:

Originally Posted by MountainDevil54

If it took 20 or so shots for it to start shooting tight, my guess would be a thicker sabot is needed.

The thing is, the Harvester Crushed Rib sabots I was using load like BUTTER. Virtually no effort needed. When I loaded the Barnes bullet in it's own sabot, it definitely took effort to load, and the groups were no better, if not worse.

MountainDevil54 · 10-20-2010, 08:36 PM

i can understand that. Sabots/ higher or lower charges, im sure will find you an accurate load even on a clean barrel.

I know that im my optima if i am shooting the 295gr powerbelts, it HATES 100gr BH209. 3 - 3 1/2" groups. Drop it down to 90 and they darn near touch.

Just make sure you keep an eye on that barrel. That wolf of ours was corroding within 2 days after finding the rust and cleaning/oiling it.

7.62NATO · 10-20-2010, 09:17 PM

What did you use on it? This? http://www.ultracoatingsinc.com/pdf/...mation2010.pdf

MountainDevil54 · 10-20-2010, 11:27 PM

yep ultra bore coat

7.62NATO · 10-21-2010, 04:41 AM

Thanks. What's the steel wool (00 or 000?) procedure? I've never had to do it before! I use Otis, so I'm assuming that I'd just put the steel wool on the cleaning tip instead of a patch and run it through, followed by a patch, repeat until rust is gone.

I wish I had a bore scope. From the muzzle end, I can see the traces of the rust ring and the lands still appear to have a slight brownish tint to them. When I look from the breech end, I don't see any rust, but of course, you cannot see the rifling as close up from that end.

Also, would JB's bore paste accomplish what we want here, or is steel wool the only way to go? And finally, does the bore need to be completely free of any rust whatsoever before applying the bore coat? That's the thing. Without a bore scope, how will I know if I've gotten all the rust?

Where's the "I'm kicking myself emoticon??" Close enough:

At least I know for sure that BH209 IS corrosive, and I can let others know without theorizing. Actually, I'm not that upset about it any more. Some things I need to know for myself.

7.62NATO · 10-21-2010, 06:14 AM

I just read about the Bore Coat. Pretty cool stuff. Pricey, though!

I may not have time to go to the range for the 20 curing shots until after the season, so I think I'll clean it, JB it and keep it oiled to see how it does, then plan on doing the bore coat after the season. That is, unless I have some bad corrosion issues. Hopefully I can get all the rust out though.

cayugad · 10-21-2010, 06:41 AM

There is no powder I know of that will not rust eventually if fired through a weapon. Some take longer then others. I had the same thing when shooting BlackHorn 209. The first three or four shots were ok, but not great. Then suddenly it turned into a tack driver. It seemed to need that fouling.

Where I hunt the weather in December and January is not nice. Its freezing cold, damp, usually snowing, or snow in the trees to get into the barrel, just a real ruff place. I take no chances with my rifles. Like you, the rifle is worth more then the hunt. I just learn to know where it will hit with that first clean shot.

As much as I love to shoot BlackHorn 209, and personally think it is a great powder, the longest I would leave a rifle dirty with it would be the week I hunt it. After that my nerves would make me clean that rifle.

I normally shoot Goex or Pyrodex RS. I just get great results with the stuff. For that reason I clean my rifles every day after a hunt. If I did not shoot, and its and inline, I remove the breech and push the powder and projectile out. Then a fast Windex swab will usually clean the the thing. And then a lightly oiled patch. In the morning, an alcohol patch and then two dry patches, and I load it fresh.

If its traditional, I shoot it off on the range at home into the steel trap. Then swab the barrel clean. Dry the barrel, oil it, and in the morning again with the alcohol patch a dry patch, pop two caps to see a burnt patch, then load for the day.

7.62NATO · 10-21-2010, 06:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cayugad

There is no powder I know of that will not rust eventually if fired through a weapon. Some take longer then others. I had the same thing when shooting BlackHorn 209. The first three or four shots were ok, but not great. Then suddenly it turned into a tack driver. It seemed to need that fouling.

Interesting. I simply have not had that issue with any of my guns. I USED to be OCD about cleaning them. I still am, when it comes to the action, but not the barrel. My M1A has not had the bore cleaned in over a year and it's shooting better than ever. Just peeked down the bore last night (after discovering the rust in my Omega) and there was no rust. In fact, there is very little visible fouling on that bore.

Quote:

As much as I love to shoot BlackHorn 209, and personally think it is a great powder, the longest I would leave a rifle dirty with it would be the week I hunt it. After that my nerves would make me clean that rifle.

I shot the gun on Friday and didn't check the barrel until last night, when the rust was discovered. Rust in 4 days.