Landngroove

My T/C Firehawks, and Thunderhawks, one in .50, and one in .54 each shoot Maxi Balls, and Maxi Hunters quite accurately. I prefer these to my Encore. These older T/C models have a 1 in 38" twist rate, vs. the 1 in 28" twist in the Encore. They are worth a look if you shoot conicals. Easily and inexpensively converted to use musket caps, by just installing a musket cap nipple in place of the standard #11 nipple, if you use 777, pyrodex, etc.

txhunter58

I have a 50 and 54 caliber T/C renegade that shoots conicals well. Just love the design and ease of cleaning of the Omega/ closed breech 209 type shooters. I also really like BH 209, which of course will only shoot in inlines.

UncleNorby

I really can't see where the T/C design is to blame. The "industry standard" 1:28 rifling will shoot conicals. I have a Traditions Genesis that shoots FPBs and it has 1:28 rifling and a QLA feature. That's not to say the QLA has nothing to do with the problem, but it does sound from what I've read that the T/C QLA is suspected by more than a few guys to be a "problem". As I said, I shoot FPBs. I don't need the QLA as I pre-size the bullets and can start them easily with fingers only.

What do you want T/C to do, market a gun without QLA as something "better" for conical shooters? Would you have them make any other changes along with it? They might see that as admitting they don't execute the QLA very well or consistently.

txhunter58

What do I want them to do? Offer a closed breech 209 gun that will shoot conicals.

Here is a T/C reply to an email I sent them asking if they would sell me an Omega barrel without the QLA:

Hi David,
Sorry but we don't sell Omega barrels seperately. We also don't offer custom Omega barrels without the QLA. The twist rate (1:28) in our Omega rifles was designed more for the sabot type bullets vise a conical which uses a 1:48 twist rate.


Thank You,
Don
TCA Customer Service
866-730-1614 ext 5793

Here is the reply I sent to him:

Not sure I understand your theory since both my knight rifles with a 1 in 28 twist shoot conicals well and White rifles, well known for shooting conicals, have a 1 in 24 twist.

I am convinced that it is your QLA that is the problem with conicals. I love the design of the Omega, but won't be buying another T/C with a QLA since I hunt Colorado. At this point, when anyone on the internet asks for advice about what rifle to buy, I tell them you have great products, but if they plan on hunting Colorado (or any other state that doesn't allow sabots), don't buy a T/C. Will keep making that recommendation until you decide to design rifles that will shoot conicals.

Has anyone actually tried shooting your barrels without the QLA to see if they will shoot conicals better? My Omega shoots 460 gr No excuse bullets at 5 to 8" at 25 yards! Some go through the target sideways. I figure with that bad of accuracy, the bullet has to be getting kicked sideways as it passes through the QLA. If this is true, it seems like it would be cheap for you to offer a "no QLA" version of your rifles as well. Just don't cut one!

Some have had a gunsmith remove their QLA and have had better luck with conicals. I may do that eventually on mine. When I bought my Omega, you actually were still advertizing on your website that the Omega would shoot "both sabots and conicals well" but I notice you no longer have that claim.

One other thing that convinces me that it is the QLA is that they are hit or miss on conicals. My brother bought an identical Omega that shoots conicals just fine, and I know of many others that do as well. So way is it that 1/3 to 1/2 don't? Got to be something more than the rate of twist.

thanks for your reply. Hope you will think about this.

UncleNorby

The T/C guy told you that "conicals use a 1:48". Hmmm, T/C's own literature described the 1:48 as a compromise twist rate, that would shoot round balls and conicals well enough, for years. If 1:48 is a compromise, it can't be the optimal rate for either round ball or conical.

As I said, my 1:28 Genesis shoots FPBs very well. You've stated that 1:24 guns shoot conicals well. So we know the twist in typical T/C barrels is not the problem. All that's left is the QLA. T/C's new commercial - "We've eliminated our crappy QLA (the same QLA that we've bragged about) for all you conical shooters". I don't think you'll get them to do that. You never know though, with the increased recent interest in bullets like FPBs, T/C may have to concede, especially if they see descreased sales. But there again, the competition does not seem to have the same trouble with conicals and QLA. I'm not saying you are wrong, I'm just wondering what spin T/C could put on it that would not make them look bad.

If you really want to shoot conicals out of your T/C, remove the QLA. Maybe reaming it out only a few thousandths would work? With all the new bullets out there I'd be surprised if it wouldn't shoot at least one conical well. I plan to try the newer 300 gr FPB this year.

txhunter58

Well, not sure if you read enough to know, but my Omega shoots FPBs just fine too (3-4 inches at 100 yards with open sights). Just don't want to be limited to one kind of conical.

txhunter58

Here is the latest correspondence from T/C:


Thank You for your interest and loyalty to T/C. I am proud to let you know that we have developed a muzzleloader that should meet your needs, it's called the Northwest Explorer. It looks very much like the Omega but uses a percussion cap for ignition and has a 1:48 twist rate for conical. You can check it out on our website @tcarms.com

Sincerely, Peter D. T/C Customer Service

Unfortunately, when I told them my "needs" I mentioned a closed breech (Norhwest has an open one to meet some state requirements) and a 209 shooter (this one shoots only #11 caps). The interesting thing is that it DOES have a QLA.

Does anyone out there know of someone shooting one?

lemoyne

I shoot 3 TC guns with QLA and have no problem with conicals when I want to use them. The FPB and the Thor will shoot one hole groups with 90 gr of Blackhorn, and before they came about I shot a 460 gr regular conical or a PB with the hollow point filled and could get 1.5 inches. Now I don't mess with them a lot as I consider the sabot-ed bullet a better choice but when I go to an other state I follow the laws even if the people making them don't understand what they are doing. I do believe that the forced use of conicals with there rainbow trajectory causes more lost game with a bad hit because of the trajectory and the time in flight. Lee

MountainDevil54

Heres another unhappy fellow with a tc and conical problems, even the FPB wont shoot.
http://www.biggamehunt.net/forums/vi...120690#p120690

There are another 3 guys in his group that are waiting to shoot theirs.

UncleNorby

Just looked on the internet and the Greenhill formula would indicate the rate of twist for a 50 cal conical 1" in length is about 1:38. I don't know the exact length of a 50 cal Maxiball, but I think it is close to an inch. The formula gives 1:41.6 for a bullet length of 0.9" and 1:34.1 for a bullet length of 1.1".

The formula is only a starting point, but I'll bet the "best" twist for 50 cal lead conicals is not 1:48. I think that Green Mountain makes muzzleloader barrels in 1:38, and I bet they are great conical shooters.

I'm thinking some of the problems with lead conicals and 1:28 rifling is gas cutting or the twist is too fast for lead to grip, but I have no real experience to back that up.