Grouse45

I see and read people talking about fragmenting bullets. What is actually in that classification and why. Is a bullet that does not retain it's original weight considered a fragmenting bullet? Or to what weight can it loose and not be considered a fragmenting bullet?

I guess i have my own opinion on fragmenting bullets. A fragmenting bullet to me is a bullet that comes apart during penetration and has a wide variety of different weights when found.

Example: I have found 250grn XTP'S that weighed 150grns when recovered. I have found them that weighed 230grns. And i also have found one that weighed 90grns. I have found some at 138grns. My point is no real consistency.

Hornady 250grn SST'S same thing as the XTP'S as far as consistency. Hell, one time the bullet fragmented so bad, all i could find is pieces of it. No exit at all.

So these are examples of what i call a fragmenting bullet. Remember this is what i consider a fragmenting bullet. Only my opinion.

I have noticed a few people put Lehigh bullets in this same category as fragmenting bullets. At the end of the day, are they really? The Lehigh will for the most part be very consistent. I look at them more as a fracturing bullet.

The petals are going to shear off by design and cut and damage vital organs in the chest cavity. Some will even say fragment. That's okay, here's were i seperate the two. The 250grn Lehigh will then become a 175grn bullet that blows right thru the animal with know mushrooming/expansion or anything to slow it down. If needed, a blood trail for sure.

I think the 175grns is close to what it really is. The fact is, the Lehigh will alway's be consistent when the bullet exit's the animal. Are fragmenting bullets consistent? None that i ever shot anyway. This is my take and what i have found.

I do understand to some these are just Theories. To me these are real world in the field results. I have used alot of different bullets on game. I have also shot game with Lehigh's. And that's why Lehigh bullets to all are just theories right now. Nobody on these boards have shot game with then but me.

lemoyne

I guess that particular definition means different things to different people. To me it means a bullet that starts disintegrating on contact and gets very little penetration. To me to fragment is what a hand grenade designed to throw shrapnel does.
I also believe that if we as a group could agree on a set of definitions it would prevent some unnecessary misunderstandings.
I believe that it is difficult to determine what damage a bullet is doing or how deep it will penetrate by retained weight. I wish we had a system that we could use to catalog just exactly what a bulletwill do. Lee

cayugad

Grouse, before you introduced the group here to what a Lehigh bullet is, and most of all can do.. had someone tried to sell me a bullet that they told me was going to hit, penetrate, fragment, and then keep on going... I'd of smiled politely during their explanation, and then after they left, forgot about it. But the bullet you are shooting is different from what I consider a fragmented bullet.

When someone tells me their bullet fragmented, I think of a bullet that separated in an uneven, and inconsistent manner. Meaning this time the bullet might have retained half it's weight, and next time, three quarters, etc.. The Lehigh seem to fragment yes, but I would be interesting in what the weight of the main body of the bullet weighs after say five test bullets. So it looses its petals, but the main body is still there.

What I mean is some bullets will fragment. Now we have bullets that are meant to fragment in a controlled manner. That hog wound of yours, and the fact a hog shot TOO far back and should have been a nightmare to recover only going a few steps.. I am interested.

sabotloader

Grouse45

I personally think that a fragmenting bullet is a bullet that blows up at or right after contact.

i think the 'V-max' is a good example of a fragmenting bullet.

I shoot .17 HRM's at peepers they are loaded with a 17 grain Hornady 'V-Max' projectile - @ 2550 fps when the hit they blow up into pieces - very small pieces none of which resembles a bullet.

I would go along with Lee's description - I am shooting a pineapple grenade - you know what that is incorrect also the old pine apple grenade broke up most often uniformly - the new grenades are probably a better description of fragmenting....

Grouse45

Multiple shots not needed is impressive. Here is a picture of two 250grn bullets recovered from a Hog. I was trying to find them to weigh them Of course i cant find them. I will post the weights another day.

sabotloader

Grouse45

One thing a lot of do not take into account is the large meplat that the bulet has after it sheds it's petals.

I think most people recognize the success of the original 'Keith Nose' projectiles and even today in the flat nose of the Bull Shop Conicals. In one of my conversations with Bullshop Dan i once suggested that he change the nose to a 'round nose' to increase areodynamics and BC if the bullet. He said he could but the Bull Shop shooter would not buy it they want the broad flat nose on the bullet for the effect that it gave the bullet.

He (I think it was him) suggested a simple experiment get a bucket of water... Extend your fingers straight out from your hand and then with as much speed as you can muster stab the bucket of water... notice the movement of water. Now repeat the process except this time make a fist and hit the water.... notice the movement of the water.... and lastly again extend your fingers and slap the water.... again a lot of water movement but how much penetration.

The meplat of the bullet creates hydrostatic shock in liquid - I want as much Hydrostatic shock with penetration as I can get...

Just thinking out loud

Old/New

I like this explanation. It seems to make a lot of sense.

sabotloader

Old/New

I should have added that ireally do not want that large meplat on the way to the target - I really would prefer a more steamlined bullet for BC (velocity and energy retention) but after the bullet enters the animal I want the large meplat to appear - but yet again not to large if it gets to big it will slow to fast - loose velocity and energy...

Semisane

Here's my take on it. When somethingbreaks off of a bullet it's a fragment of the bullet. So when anythingbreaks off, the bullet is fragmenting -whether intended in the bullet design or not.

Up until the Lehigh came along, about the only bullets designed to fragment (or in which fragmentation was at all desirable)were centerfire varmintbullets. The goal inthemanufacture of hunting bullets was controlled expansion with the least possible amount of fragmentation, or no expansion at all in the case of dangerous game bone busting solids which seldom fragment. About the only bullet I know of that achieved excellent expansion with almost zero fragmentation is the Barnes.

Now, along comes Lehigh with a new and unique concept in a hunting bullet - built in and controlled fragmentation. I say "controlled" because the key to such a concept is apredictable number and size of fragments. I don't know if they started out with that goal, but that seems to be what they ended up with. Based on the game-taking results Grouse reported it looks like a viable concept. But it's going to be awful hard to give up a lifetime of searching for the perfect mushroom.

spaniel

So here's my take. It's semantics. Fracture, fragment, both mean coming apart. Yes, you can argue to what degree and with what consistency but it's coming apart. Sabotloader gives one extreme in the V-max, a truly horrific bullet on game (especially out of my 300WM at 3800fps!). While devastating on whatever it hits for the first foot or so, usually when I shoot a milk jug with them there is no exit hole, just a few shraphnel holes. Most other bullets fall in the middle with the Barnes probably being the only one to routinely average in the upper-90s of percent weight retained.

Honestly, I see zero advantage in the Leigh design conceptually. The petals that sheer off weigh just a few grains apiece and therefore have very limited energy to further penetrate on their own. I am curious if you hit the shoulder blade if they remain on the outside or sheer off inside -- that would be an interesting test shot to think about this fall when you hunt with them.

As for the large meplat argument, the necessary corrollary to that argument is the insinuation that conventional bullets lack such a thing. However, they do not, an opened mushroom is a large meplat! Also an insinuation in that argument is that mushrooming impedes penatration to the point that it comprimises penetration. Now I recently discussed with Sabotloader that I am concerned that this is the case with Barnes bullets, but I've go to tell you I've shot DOZENS of deer with Shockwaves at ranges from 15 to 338 yards and I can count on one hand the number that did not exit. So the argument is invalid on both the meplat and impeded penetration counts.

Now this doesn't mean that the Leigh is an inferior bullet -- they probably work about as well as anything else. There is more than one path to the same destination. Apparently I'm going to try some soon and I look forward to getting a look at them. Honestly I just think your arguments to elevate them above everything else are inflated.