The Delayed "Burning P" Report

[Semisane]

A few weeks ago I followed Bronko's suggestionand tried burning somePyrodex P in my TC Renegade with the .45 GM LRH barrel. Ididn't post a report back then because I forgot to grab the targets out of my hooch when I left the hunting lease.Well, I went to the lease Friday for a week-end shoot. Although I returned home earlier than planned because of constant rain, at least I remembered to bring back the targets from that earlier shoot. So here's my overdue homework.

First of all, let me say that I didn't equal Bronko's sub-two-inch groups at 100 yards. Even more embarrassing, he was using iron sights and I was using a 4X Simmons ProDiamond scope. [:-]

I planned to shoot the 200 grain .40 caliber XTPs, but didn't remember what powder charge Bronko was using. So I decided to start with 85 grains, and work my way up from there. That may have been a mistake. I probably should have started at 70 grains.

Here's the first target with 85 grains Pyrodex P. Shot #1 was on a squeaky clean oiled barrel (notice the velocity of that shot compared to the others). I then wiped the bore with one side of a 91% alcohol patch and shot #2. I was lucky those first two shots were on the paper. I then adjusted the scope and shot #3, 4 and 5, wiping with one side of an alcohol patch between shots. I thought the 3-shot group was OK, but not great. I didn't adjust the scope again for the remainder of the session.





Moving on to 90 grains of powder, I shot a 5-shot group on a new target. Here it is.





Now, I could kill a deer with that kind of accuracy at 100 yards, but I was sure hoping for better than this. I was kind of surprised at the wide velocity spread.

OK, so goose the load up to 95 grains and tryanother 5-shot group. Here's the target.




No real difference in results.

For all shots on those first three targets I was using Harvesters regular 4540 blue sabot. So I decided to stick with the 95 grain load and try the Crush Rib sabot. Here's that target.




The group size was about the same, but centered a little lower on the target. There are no velocity readings because a light rain had started and I moved the chrono under cover.

By now I'm wondering if regular Pyrodex RS would be better, worse, or the same. So I put out another target and, since the rain had stopped, set up the chrono again. Here's the RS target.






I'm kinda` hoping that I screwed up that shot to the right, and the gun/load potential is better reflected in the other four shots - an inch and three-quarter group.

By now the clouds are getting black and I know I'm about to get bombed. But I managed to get in one more group before the heavens opened. I made another powder switch - to FFG Triple 7. Average velocity really jumped up, but the group size was the same as the Pyrodex P groups. Here's the target.





I know what you're thinking - the load is OK, but the shooter can't do the job? That might the the problem. Anyway, I would be willing to take a broadside shot with this load, but won't be doing any 100 yard neck shooting with it.

SIDE NOTE: Notice the last target is #42, so I've shot42 5-shot groups out of this barrel. The best group (one and one quarter inch) was with 285 grain Hornady Great Plains bullets over 75 grains GOEX FFFg.

[bronko22000]

Semi - Not too bad. But it should get better.I think you're right about it being too hot a load. I started with 70 grains out of the Renegade barrel and actually the 70 grain charge of Pyrodex P shot better than the 80 gr load but I coldn't get the rear sight low enough and was shooting about 4" high at 100 yds. When I stoked the barrel with 80 grains of "P" the group was only slightly bigger but I was only 2" above POA.
Also, what kind of sabot were you using. I use the light blue Harvester EZ Load sabots with this bullet. And I swab with 50/50 mix of alcohol and windex. One damp (both sides) and one dry (both sides). That seems to remove about 95% of the fouling.
Oh yeah, and whoever mentioned the T17 cleaner in their post, thanks a lot. I was running low on Butch's and got a bottle of the T17. All I can say is WOW. After the range session, I came home and rantwo T17 patches down the bore cause I couldn't get to cleaning it right away. The first one has dirty as normal and followed with a dry patch. Ran another T17 down and it came out spotless. So did the dry patch afterward. I did give it a hot soap and water cleaning as usual later in the day but I don't think I really had to. The water was as clean as it was when I put it in the container.

[cayugad]

Semisane - While I think the groups are hunting quality groups, that barrel should be able to do better. I would try a different bullet. Different powders, or differnt charges. There has to be a sweet spot in these barrels. Its just a matter of finding them. They might even need a mild lapp or a lot of shooting to smooth them out. I bought the Stainless Steel model, so mine should work perfect..

Also the one concern of mine with Bronko's groups (not that I am not going to duplicate his testing when my barrel gets here) is with that low of a powder charge (one was I believe 50 grains). Do you really want to hunt with a sabot with that kind of a charge? Now don't get me wrong, I am not an advocate of magnum charges by any means. But people go to these .45 calibers to shoot a smaller projectile faster... Look at the 200 grain Shockwave. I think we need aerodynamic stuff with this kind of a barrel.

I am thinking of just the opposite end of the chart with this barrel. Its smaller caliber, the barrel is 28 inches, and its shooting sabots. I am going to really push the devil out of some of these loads. I think in there, lies the sweet spot for these barrels.

Oh the excitment of another gun to shoot. Just think of all the black smoke this summer when there is no snow and I can walk around again.. Here it is beautiful and warm, but because of my knee and the snow I dare not walk around out there. And I sure have been tempted.

[Semisane]

Also, what kind of sabot were you using. I use the light blue Harvester EZ Load sabots with this bullet.

Bronko, that's what I used too. I also tried the crush rib sabot for one group (target #40).

[oldsmellhound]

I agree - that rifle/barrel should be able to shoot better than that- you just need to find the sweet spot. You could try using the tan MMP .45/.40 sabot instead of the light blue Harvestor. Another option is to try some 777 FFFG - I've always gotten better accuracy with that than the FFG. You'll probably need to play around with powder charges more, too. I guess it's another excuse to get back to the range and have some fun. 50 - 60 grains of powder and the 200 grain XTP actually would be a decent short-range deer load in my book, but not for further ranges. Another member (I forget who) took a javelina and some deer using the 200 XTP and 60 grains of T7 or less, I believe. If you want to shoot past 80 or 100 yards though, I'd use at least 80 grains of powder.

[bronko22000]

Dave, I think you misunderstood my posts. I am only going to use the 50 gr "P" load with the 150 gr .400" Noslerfor turkey and squirrel and plinking on paper. I too don't believe it has enough Oomph for deer.
For deer I am going to use the 200 gr .400" XTP and 80 gr of "P".

[cayugad]

I did misunderstand.. that should make a good turkey load. That would be exciting to shoot a turkey with a rifle.

[hunting junkie]

One thing about it you get to play some more.

[bronko22000]

Semi - Are those first 2 bullets touching? The ones that almost missed the paper? I can't really tell. The reason I am asking is that if those 2 are that close it could be one or two other things. Maybe you are not cleaning the bore as good as you think between shots or your scope may be messed up.
I'd bring the target up to 50 yds and shoot the iron sights and see how it performs. At least that my throw out the scope variable.
What do you guys think?

[Semisane]

Semi - Are those first 2 bullets touching? The ones that almost missed the paper?

Not hardly. The first one is at the bottom right hand side of the paper. The second shot is at the very top right hand corner.

I kinda doubt it's a scope problem, but possible I guess. I looked through my target file for a couple of good 50 yard groups, and was surprised to see that last OctoberI had shot some 180 grain XTPs over a stiff load of 105 grains Pyrodex RS. I just didn't remember doing that. Here's that target.



And I also had a pretty decent 50 yard target with the 200 grain XTPs over a light 65 grain load of RS.



I just noticed I was using crush rib sabots for those targets. I suspectthere's a 100 yard sweet loadI've yet to find. Have any of you guys ever shot deer with the 180 grain XTPs?