When does a bullet fragment?

[Skopia]

If a bullet manufacture publishes specific bullet velocities for a given bullet, does that mean if you keep that bullet within those parameters it should not fragment?
For example: I have been shooting the Hornady .430 240gr xtp these past two years with great success. Over 90 gr 777 I'm somewhere between 1700 and 1800 fps. (I'm guessing).Hornady publishes in it's velocity performance table a velocity rating between 900-1800 fps. Are we to assume that if kept within that range that bullet will perform as designed and not fragment on impact? If not, what is that information supposed to mean?

[sabotloader]

Skopia

Are we to assume that if kept within that range that bullet will perform as designed and not fragment on impact

That should be the general assumption - but you probably already know assumptions.

There are some bullets that will perform very well beyond their published range. Remember the published range is used in the assumption that you are using them in the weapon they they are designed for.

As an example - I shoot a 10mm 200 grain XTP at near 2200 ft per second, way above the published range - yet the darn things hold together just fine in my non-scientific torture test. Can not say the same about other XTP's though.

[gleason.chapman]

ORIGINAL: Skopia

If a bullet manufacture publishes specific bullet velocities for a given bullet, does that mean if you keep that bullet within those parameters it should not fragment?
For example: I have been shooting the Hornady .430 240gr xtp these past two years with great success. Over 90 gr 777 I'm somewhere between 1700 and 1800 fps. (I'm guessing).Hornady publishes in it's velocity performance table a velocity rating between 900-1800 fps. Are we to assume that if kept within that range that bullet will perform as designed and not fragment on impact? If not, what is that information supposed to mean?

Bullet fragmentation is one of those hottly debated topics, that folks feel very defensive of, so please do a lot of reading to make up your own mind. I have made up mine, and I don't like any fragmenation.

It depends on the bullet, the materials made of the bullet, the jacket bonding to the bullet, etc. If your always shooting at standing deer, bow shots thru the vitals, bullet design doesn't make a difference, anything will work from PRB to Nosler Partition. In general the design parameters are for expansion primarily, not fragmentation. Most bullet makers don't advertise fragmentation above a certain velocity because they know that it hurts sales, they would rather say, a design range. A huge bullet going slow, makes big hole and kills effectively. A small bullet going fast makes 45cal hole and kills effectively. There are some that believe that a little bit of fragmentation is a good thing, like up to 25% or so, I am not one of them, since I believe it limits penetration. There are 4 factors need to take game effectively:
1) accuracy, without it you can't hit so it makes no difference, gotta have it 3" group at 100
2) penetration, at least 12", why 12" read about the FBI terminal ballistics write up, man and deer about same size
3) expansion, gets you huge wound channel, and large blood displacement and quick kill, gotta have large would channel
4) shoot thru for good blood trail.

I would say fragmentation affects penetration and shoot thru, you hardly ever see a fragmented bullet shooting thru a deer, and in general a fragmentation causes less penetration. Some believe that fragmenting bullet gives you larger wound channel and therefore is better, evidence for that they sayis a shot gun shot at close range with #4 or #2s bbs. In general that is true, however effective range of shot gun is max 40 or 50 yards or so. Most bullets shot in their design range will not fragment, however most makers don't publish their designed bullet range! All the reloading books load by caliber and make bullets designed for that caliber, which is pressure based. It takes STRONG well constructed bullets to take BIG 300 lb deer with raking shot or shoulder shot, and a 100 lb deer is easily killed with a STRONG well constructed bullet, so why not use them for hunting? Cost is one factor, accuracy is another. Most people shy away from Noslers, Barnes and other premiuum bullets because of cost or lack of accuracy with a given bullet. If your plinking stay with the XTPs and Gold Dots for that, but find a hunting load with a non-fragmenting, highly accurate, bullet. Do a lot of reading at Cabelas and Midway and Google for any bullet you choose. Once there are "several bad reports" on a given bullet, don't use it. Don't use LOADing as the reason you don't select a bullet. Find a sabot that gives you easy loading. Use hot primers with Blackhorn. Use strong bullets that don't fragment and are extremely accurate in your rifle.

Most of the general MLing population will NOT shoot different bullets into wet newspapers or sand to see how they expand. Most will NOT shoot loose power to see where the sweet point is fortheir gun. Most will not experiment with different sabots to getthe right loading pressure and bullet for thier gun.
Most will NOT want to swab between shots. Most are NOT on this MLer forum. Most will get their "general hunting information" from theirbuddies, and they will select a bullet thatis either cheap or their buddies recommend. So it goes with SW and PBs. If you do just a bit of reading, and buy 1 book. "RifleBullets for the Hunter a Definitive Study", you will find out why Craig Boddinigton shoots and expanding bullet forhis first shot at Capebuffalo, but a solid for his second. Buy the book it is an excellent read for a hunter.

http://www.riflebullets.net/

Chap

[spaniel]

Excellent post, Chap.

I totally agree, fragmentation is not a good thing in a hunting bullet. Unless you're using your ML for self-defense I'd stay away from a bullet with known fragmentation issues on animals the size you plan to hunt.

Staying within the recommended velocity range is a starting point, but you can "force" bullets into fragmenting even in this range if you hit a ton of bone. You still must factor in the intended purpose when choosing a bullet, even if you're in the suggested velocity range. For example, you may want to avoid fragmentation by using a bonded bullet. However, many bonded bullets do not expand as well as non-bonded versions, so while the bonded bullet may do fine on elk it may not open well enough on a whitetail doe.

Fortunately, bullets have come a long way. There are few bullets I've really heard reliable reports of fragmentation problems. These would be Powerbelts driven too fast and light (240gr and lighter) XTPs also driven fast. Also the 250gr Shockwave fast at close range, although the other weights seem to be fine.

[gleason.chapman]

ORIGINAL: spaniel

Excellent post, Chap.

I totally agree, fragmentation is not a good thing in a hunting bullet. Unless you're using your ML for self-defense I'd stay away from a bullet with known fragmentation issues on animals the size you plan to hunt.

Staying within the recommended velocity range is a starting point, but you can "force" bullets into fragmenting even in this range if you hit a ton of bone. You still must factor in the intended purpose when choosing a bullet, even if you're in the suggested velocity range. For example, you may want to avoid fragmentation by using a bonded bullet. However, many bonded bullets do not expand as well as non-bonded versions, so while the bonded bullet may do fine on elk it may not open well enough on a whitetail doe.

Fortunately, bullets have come a long way. There are few bullets I've really heard reliable reports of fragmentation problems. These would be Powerbelts driven too fast and light (240gr and lighter) XTPs also driven fast. Also the 250gr Shockwave fast at close range, although the other weights seem to be fine.

Thank you. I agree about bonded not expanding as well. Agree also on XTP/SW/PB fraging on close shots. Chap

[Chasam60]

I used this load in my 700ML. It was my most accurate load and bullet performance was excellent and reliable.

Charlie

[lemoyne]

When it comes to hunting remember one thing if you put the bullet in the right place it will do the job if you dont it wont make any difference what bullet you use. I have used every bullet mentioned and was careful to use them in the velocity range they work well in and place them carefully for a quick kill. They all work acceptably some were better than others but that's to be expected, I just don't find as much difference between some of the extremely high priced bullets and the normal ones as some people seem to. The two things that are most important in my opinion are that the bullet is accurate and that you shoot it accurate. A lot of bad raps are hung on bullets because some one got excited and did not hit the right spot. Lee

[falcon]

The search for the elusive magic bullet that will turn a gut shot into a bang flop every time continues.

[gleason.chapman]

ORIGINAL: falcon

The search for the elusive magic bullet that will turn a gut shot into a bang flop every time continues.

It does, but not for gut shots for chest cavity shots. Chap

[gleason.chapman]

ORIGINAL: falcon

The search for the elusive magic bullet that will turn a gut shot into a bang flop every time continues.

More magic bullet info:

http://www.snipersparadise.com/tsmag/July03/july03.htm

Chap