Savage problem

[fusion]

New to the forum, here goes.
I purchased a Savage 10ML-11 last year. I used the reccomended load, Hornady 300gr XTP-non mag, short MMP black sabot, 5744 powder. The load was very accurate and reliable in the gun, but after taking three deer with it I was not happy with terminal performance of the bullet, mainy expansion and lack of blood trail. I had two of the shots double lungers with little to no blood to follow. So this year I tried switching to Barnes MZ expanders 300grain, with sabot provided HPH-12 MMP. This load basically fell down the barrel with no resistance which in turn meant poor grouping. So .451 bullets are not an option. I then switched to Randy Wakemans pet load, Barnes BO with MMP orange sabot. Sighted in on a nice fall day at 100yds with a sub 1 inch group (load was loose fitting as well), cool I'm ready to go. Well last week was our ML season here in NY and I had some big problems. Primer would fire and Bullet would fall out the Barrel with no powder ignition. Research tells me that smokeless powder needs a tight preasure seal to ignite. My plan is to try some other sabots with the .458 BO but also do a land to land measurement of the inside bore diameter. Savage says should fall between .498-.503. Any other ideas out there???

[sabotloader]

fusion

Gotta have a tight sabot....

Since the MMP Orange is to loose - maybe the combination of the HPH-12 with the Barnes Original .458 willgive you that tightness.

The other options, off the top of my head, is the Barnes in a MMP-Short Black - that should tighten things up and also Harvester is making a 'red crush rib' that also might work.

Here is break down of sabot sizes - that might help...



We do have a Savage shooter on this forum and he always has good information....

[lemoyne]

You ask,
Flatten a lead ball just enough that you can just drive it in the barrel with your short starter pull the breach plug and push it back out after you are sure it was in far enough to engrave the rifling, measure it, either post the size of your barrel so one of us can help you or go to MM forum and look at the sticky that has the different sabot in combination with different bullets and pick out what you were using that grouped and find a combination that gives you that size. You will probably have to order some sabots but its the way to get a start on learning about the different combinations and how to make them work for you instead of against you. Lee
PS I see sabotloader has posted what I was talking about. Lee

[Rock Fish]

5744 powder I believe requires a crimp when loading in a large capacity cartridge. If the sabot and bullet are a loose combination that may be your problem.

[gleason.chapman]

ORIGINAL: fusion

New to the forum, here goes.
I purchased a Savage 10ML-11 last year. I used the reccomended load, Hornady 300gr XTP-non mag, short MMP black sabot, 5744 powder. The load was very accurate and reliable in the gun, but after taking three deer with it I was not happy with terminal performance of the bullet, mainy expansion and lack of blood trail. I had two of the shots double lungers with little to no blood to follow. So this year I tried switching to Barnes MZ expanders 300grain, with sabot provided HPH-12 MMP. This load basically fell down the barrel with no resistance which in turn meant poor grouping. So .451 bullets are not an option. I then switched to Randy Wakemans pet load, Barnes BO with MMP orange sabot. Sighted in on a nice fall day at 100yds with a sub 1 inch group (load was loose fitting as well), cool I'm ready to go. Well last week was our ML season here in NY and I had some big problems. Primer would fire and Bullet would fall out the Barrel with no powder ignition. Research tells me that smokeless powder needs a tight preasure seal to ignite. My plan is to try some other sabots with the .458 BO but also do a land to land measurement of the inside bore diameter. Savage says should fall between .498-.503. Any other ideas out there???

Been there done taht.Switch out your MMP Orangel to Black Crushed Rib and keep the BO, I shoot them in a Savage with 4198, which is harder to ignite that 5744. If you like the Barnes MZ, buy a box of Barnes TSX 45/70 bullet, which are .458 diameter, I use a CR sabot also with it. Same big gapping hollowpoint as MZ but .458 diameter not .452 which is .006 looser. I think you will like that bullet.


The following was shot this past summer in very hot weather with 44g of 5744, black crushed rib and the 45843 Barnes TSX bullet, look at the group, not the hitting the exact center, that is just a scope adjustment. 100 yards.

Here is the bullet on Mid south:

https://www.midsouthshooterssupply.com/item.asp?sku=0003545843

here is the CR sabot:
https://www.midsouthshooterssupply.com/item.asp?sku=00072H15045BR

note, the CR sabot is for .452 diameter bullets, but it works in the .458 Barnes and other 45/70 bullets also, no problem. In fact it is just right tight.

here is another great bullet, Speer Gold Dot 300g:
https://www.midsouthshooterssupply.com/item.asp?sku=000213974


If your haviing touble with lung shot and deer recovery (It is a big deal to me.) recommend one of the following shots to anchor a deer:

brisket shot
neck joins body
high shoulder

I hunt from tree stands on small properties with LOTS of deer and have to anchor the deer right there. I want shoot thru, I want excellent blood trail and I want dead right there or within 20 or 30 yards. Barnes do it (I think the BO many be a bit too hard on close shots, that is conclusion I am coming to). MZ and TSX 45843 Flat Nose is just right to me--biug hollow point with great expasion and great bone breaking capability. Nosler Partitions do this:

https://www.midsouthshooterssupply.com/item.asp?sku=0011545350

also the Gold Dots do it.

Chap

[fusion]

Excellent chart with all the diameters. Do you know who manufactures the sabots for Knight? I have four samples of sabots coming. Black and Red crushed rib from Harvester. The HPH-24 and 3-pedal ez from MMP

[gleason.chapman]

ORIGINAL: fusion

Excellent chart with all the diameters. Do you know who manufactures the sabots for Knight? I have four samples of sabots coming. Black and Red crushed rib from Harvester. The HPH-24 and 3-pedal ez from MMP

Gotta be careful here, some of the major guys like TC buy from Harvester or MMP and then "switch contracts", that is why I like the Barnes TSX 45843 and CR sabot, then you always got the right thing.
Chap

[sabotloader]

fusion

The HPH-24 and 3-pedal ez from MMP

Those will likely be to small for a Savage with real smokeless..

The Crush Ribs will probably provide the answers you are looking for.

Knight use to make their own sabots, the big .511 black Knight was one of their own - do not think they make it anymore, but you never know check the knight site for that part number - looks like they do

http://www.knightrifles.com/productdetail.aspx?id=326457

MMP has the contract for Hornady, TC, and Knight at the present time. Although I thought Del (MMP) at one timehad told me that he had bought the Knight equipment...????

Look at the Knight sabot - there is a very large space between petals as compared to the other sabots - that is a Knight sabot built by Knight...

[Panhandle]

My Savage works well with these. It has a loose bore also.
Try the blacks with .458 bullets
Try the reds with .450-.452 bullets.
Good luck, Zen


http://www.midsouthshooterssupply.com/item.asp?sku=00072H15045BR
http://www.midsouthshooterssupply.com/item.asp?sku=00072H25045SRR

[fusion]

Thanks for all the info guy's. I also ordered the Knight black sabots yesterday as well.Those may even allow me to use a .451 round. I'm confident I can find the right combination. I had to swallow some crow last week with the other guys in camp as all of them shoot Knights, especially after bragging up the Savage.
Again thanks for all the replies to my problem.