Shooting Muzzle loader $$
09-08-2008, 03:05 PM
#11
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location:
Posts: 3,246
RE: Shooting Muzzle loader $$
ORIGINAL: lemoyne
Well since no one else did, theres a few thing you should notice.
The idea of going buy 7000 gr in a pound when loads are measured by volume dont work.
For your info, the standard set by Weastern for Black Horn is that 70 gr of wt is equal100gr by black powder volume.
Those power belts you mentioned not only cost excessively but have a narrow field of application [dont load more than 85 gr of powder by vol behind them they might frag on an animal]
Black Horn works well for me in an Omega[ use a 1/8 inch drill to clean the carbon out of the breah plug now and then if you use win 209's]
Black Horn has only 10 oz in a can. It is very expensive and not the way to cut costs.
#1 If you are shooting for fun there are much cheaper ways to go.
I recommend loose powder, Pyrodex will work fine it is the most cosistant of the cheaper subs.
#2 Buy XTP or Gold Dot bullets in bulk if you want to use them for hunting to, I recommend 250 gr Gold Dot for deer size animals.
#3 if you are not hunting ,then buy lead bullets in bulk or mold and size your own [ some do this for hunting to]
Buy yor sabots in bulk from Graf or Midsouth.
#4 If you configure your buying carefully you should do better than 50% of what you were spending.
#5 If you want to use the best for hunting and still shoot all year long then try the Parker or Barnes or Partition bullets and only shoot them to sight in before season and for deer or what ever.
Lee
ORIGINAL: statjunk
Ok I've come to the conclusion that I've got to change what I'm doing with my muzzle loader. It is costing me to damn much to shoot this thing. Over the last few weekends I've shot through at least $175 worth of powder and bullets.
Here's what I've been doing so far:
777 Pellets
TC Shockwaves 250gr
Powerbelts 245gr
How many loadings can I get out of a lb of Blackhorn? I'm thinking like 70 since 7000 grains in a lb and approx 100grs per load. I've been reading the posts and am thinking about trying it. Will it fire with the standard breech plug in my Omega?
What are some bullets and sabots that I can hunt with that I can purchase in bulk? I want to stay away from the $20 for 15 round bullets. It's getting out of freakin hand!
Tom
Ok I've come to the conclusion that I've got to change what I'm doing with my muzzle loader. It is costing me to damn much to shoot this thing. Over the last few weekends I've shot through at least $175 worth of powder and bullets.
Here's what I've been doing so far:
777 Pellets
TC Shockwaves 250gr
Powerbelts 245gr
How many loadings can I get out of a lb of Blackhorn? I'm thinking like 70 since 7000 grains in a lb and approx 100grs per load. I've been reading the posts and am thinking about trying it. Will it fire with the standard breech plug in my Omega?
What are some bullets and sabots that I can hunt with that I can purchase in bulk? I want to stay away from the $20 for 15 round bullets. It's getting out of freakin hand!
Tom
The idea of going buy 7000 gr in a pound when loads are measured by volume dont work.
For your info, the standard set by Weastern for Black Horn is that 70 gr of wt is equal100gr by black powder volume.
Those power belts you mentioned not only cost excessively but have a narrow field of application [dont load more than 85 gr of powder by vol behind them they might frag on an animal]
Black Horn works well for me in an Omega[ use a 1/8 inch drill to clean the carbon out of the breah plug now and then if you use win 209's]
Black Horn has only 10 oz in a can. It is very expensive and not the way to cut costs.
#1 If you are shooting for fun there are much cheaper ways to go.
I recommend loose powder, Pyrodex will work fine it is the most cosistant of the cheaper subs.
#2 Buy XTP or Gold Dot bullets in bulk if you want to use them for hunting to, I recommend 250 gr Gold Dot for deer size animals.
#3 if you are not hunting ,then buy lead bullets in bulk or mold and size your own [ some do this for hunting to]
Buy yor sabots in bulk from Graf or Midsouth.
#4 If you configure your buying carefully you should do better than 50% of what you were spending.
#5 If you want to use the best for hunting and still shoot all year long then try the Parker or Barnes or Partition bullets and only shoot them to sight in before season and for deer or what ever.
Lee
Crushed Rib sabots ($5.25 for 50):
https://www.midsouthshooterssupply.com/item.asp?sku=00072H15045BR
250g Gold Dots (15.24 for box of 50)
https://www.midsouthshooterssupply.com/item.asp?sku=000214484
Hornady XTPs (13.243 for 50)
https://www.midsouthshooterssupply.com/item.asp?sku=0000345230
MMP black sabots
6.84 for 50)https://www.midsouthshooterssupply.com/item.asp?sku=0021150045HPH
Much cheaper. Chap
09-09-2008, 06:05 AM
#12
Nontypical Buck
Thread Starter
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Michigan
Posts: 3,329
RE: Shooting Muzzle loader $$
ORIGINAL: gleason.chapman
Crushed Rib sabots ($5.25 for 50):
https://www.midsouthshooterssupply.com/item.asp?sku=00072H15045BR
250g Gold Dots (15.24 for box of 50)
https://www.midsouthshooterssupply.com/item.asp?sku=000214484
Hornady XTPs (13.243 for 50)
https://www.midsouthshooterssupply.com/item.asp?sku=0000345230
MMP black sabots6.84 for 50)
https://www.midsouthshooterssupply.com/item.asp?sku=0021150045HPH
Much cheaper. Chap
Crushed Rib sabots ($5.25 for 50):
https://www.midsouthshooterssupply.com/item.asp?sku=00072H15045BR
250g Gold Dots (15.24 for box of 50)
https://www.midsouthshooterssupply.com/item.asp?sku=000214484
Hornady XTPs (13.243 for 50)
https://www.midsouthshooterssupply.com/item.asp?sku=0000345230
MMP black sabots
6.84 for 50)https://www.midsouthshooterssupply.com/item.asp?sku=0021150045HPH
Much cheaper. Chap
Tom
09-09-2008, 06:09 AM
#13
Nontypical Buck
Thread Starter
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Michigan
Posts: 3,329
RE: Shooting Muzzle loader $$
ORIGINAL: cayugad
Good quality bulk bullets that you can afford and hunt with... Hornady XTP and Speer Gold Dot. I personally like the .44 caliber .430 diameter 300 grain XTP but you get more shots out of the 250 grain or 240 grain which would also be good deer bullets IF YOUR RIFLE LIKES THEM. The Speer Gold Dot I so far have not decided which bullet I like best. I have shot a lot of them but just have not made up my mind.
To match the sabot, look at the caliber and diameter of the bullet you are buying. A .44 caliber .430 needs a sabot made for a .44 caliber .430 diameter bullet. Normally they are green in color, but that is not always true. I like the Harvester Crushed Rib sabots. In the .45 caliber bullets which are .452 or .458 you have to be a little more careful. The .452 diameter need the black sabots made for a .45 caliber bullet in .452 diameter. BUT in the .458 which is also a .45 caliber (normally made for the 45/70 government) they are an orange sabot, in .458 diameter.
All of them would work well on deer. Deer are not that hard to kill and a 200-300 grain bullet is plenty medicine.
As for powder, if shooting a 209 ignition the Triple Se7en 2f is a great powder. Lots of power and goes off fine for me. You will need to get a powder measure that measures powder in volume. Set the measure at 80 grains and then start shooting groups. Work the measure up to 120 grains of loose, depending on the rifle you shoot and the accuracy you get. Normally somewhere between 90-110 is best accuracy in most rifles. BUT know what the manufacturer of your rifle recommends.
What kind of rifle are you shooting? I best some of these people can tell you a load that might work.
Good quality bulk bullets that you can afford and hunt with... Hornady XTP and Speer Gold Dot. I personally like the .44 caliber .430 diameter 300 grain XTP but you get more shots out of the 250 grain or 240 grain which would also be good deer bullets IF YOUR RIFLE LIKES THEM. The Speer Gold Dot I so far have not decided which bullet I like best. I have shot a lot of them but just have not made up my mind.
To match the sabot, look at the caliber and diameter of the bullet you are buying. A .44 caliber .430 needs a sabot made for a .44 caliber .430 diameter bullet. Normally they are green in color, but that is not always true. I like the Harvester Crushed Rib sabots. In the .45 caliber bullets which are .452 or .458 you have to be a little more careful. The .452 diameter need the black sabots made for a .45 caliber bullet in .452 diameter. BUT in the .458 which is also a .45 caliber (normally made for the 45/70 government) they are an orange sabot, in .458 diameter.
All of them would work well on deer. Deer are not that hard to kill and a 200-300 grain bullet is plenty medicine.
As for powder, if shooting a 209 ignition the Triple Se7en 2f is a great powder. Lots of power and goes off fine for me. You will need to get a powder measure that measures powder in volume. Set the measure at 80 grains and then start shooting groups. Work the measure up to 120 grains of loose, depending on the rifle you shoot and the accuracy you get. Normally somewhere between 90-110 is best accuracy in most rifles. BUT know what the manufacturer of your rifle recommends.
What kind of rifle are you shooting? I best some of these people can tell you a load that might work.
I'm shooting a stainless TC Omega. Is there anyone that has shot any of the above, Hornady XTP or Speer Gold Dots and found one to be better or worse for the Omega? Any suggestions on what grain to go with? I'd like to keep the trajectory as flat as possible but also want the best accuracy I can get out to 150 yards. Though most of my shooting will be 100 yards or less.
I can't believe how much money I've wasted!
Thanks
Tom
09-09-2008, 10:00 AM
#15
Spike
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: PA
Posts: 90
RE: Shooting Muzzle loader $$
My father has a TC Omega. His favorite load is 100 gr FFg T7, 250 gr .452 XTP, Harvester 50/45 cal black sabot and Winchester 209 primers. It has done very well for him with shots under 150 yards.
09-09-2008, 10:39 AM
#16
Boone & Crockett
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Idaho
Posts: 11,703
RE: Shooting Muzzle loader $$
statjunk
Dang! i just had a response composed and hit the wrong mosue click and lost everything so I will try again... it was long last time maybe i can cut it down this time....
I have a SS Omega also and I should tell you right off the get-go I am totally biased - so use what you might want and throw the rest away.
One of my first biases is that I do prefer .451/.452 bullets over the .429/.430 bullets. One of the reasons people move to the 44 cals is/was bullet BC. I contend at ML velociies and ranges the BC difference is not that important+ I prefer near bore size projectiles. If BC is a concern then the .452/300 grain Speer Bonded Gold Dot might be your answer with a BC of.233 - closing on the the SST/SW at about 1/3 of the price.
But to be totally honest with you I do shoot an expensive bullet for hunting. I shoot a NoslerPartition for both elk and deer. I shoot a .451/260gr Nosler in aHPH-24 sabot on top of 110 grains of T7-2f for deer hunting, but for everything else practice-plinking-recreation I shoot a Spreer Bonded Gold Dot.452/250grain... the flight patteren are very simular so no scope adjustment needed. If and when I run out of Nosler the Gold Dot will become the hunting bullet also. I have decided this after several research projects, if you want to call them that, for me the Gold Dot will shoot through bone or tissue and provide the results you need. The XTP's on the other hand can come apart.
I have a bunch of information I would like to share with you but I t would take up a bunch of space... so I will provide only a few....
Here is a pic of a recovered Nosler - the nose lead fell out while I was scrubbing the bullet clean... these are the best of the best as far as Iam concerned. Easyly shot to 175 yards...
Here is a factory pic of an expanded Gold Dot - they really do not expand this uniformily - but close...
Here are some real life expanded Gold Dots
Here are some XTP tests....
This is an old thread you might want to check out...
http://www.huntingnet.com/forum/tm.aspx?m=1791957
Keep in mind all of this is opinion - you will get to make the final choice... have fun...
the first post, the one in la-la land,had more viable information but I forgot a lot of it - have a ton more information if you want it...
mike
Dang! i just had a response composed and hit the wrong mosue click and lost everything so I will try again... it was long last time maybe i can cut it down this time....
I have a SS Omega also and I should tell you right off the get-go I am totally biased - so use what you might want and throw the rest away.
One of my first biases is that I do prefer .451/.452 bullets over the .429/.430 bullets. One of the reasons people move to the 44 cals is/was bullet BC. I contend at ML velociies and ranges the BC difference is not that important+ I prefer near bore size projectiles. If BC is a concern then the .452/300 grain Speer Bonded Gold Dot might be your answer with a BC of.233 - closing on the the SST/SW at about 1/3 of the price.
But to be totally honest with you I do shoot an expensive bullet for hunting. I shoot a NoslerPartition for both elk and deer. I shoot a .451/260gr Nosler in aHPH-24 sabot on top of 110 grains of T7-2f for deer hunting, but for everything else practice-plinking-recreation I shoot a Spreer Bonded Gold Dot.452/250grain... the flight patteren are very simular so no scope adjustment needed. If and when I run out of Nosler the Gold Dot will become the hunting bullet also. I have decided this after several research projects, if you want to call them that, for me the Gold Dot will shoot through bone or tissue and provide the results you need. The XTP's on the other hand can come apart.
I have a bunch of information I would like to share with you but I t would take up a bunch of space... so I will provide only a few....
Here is a pic of a recovered Nosler - the nose lead fell out while I was scrubbing the bullet clean... these are the best of the best as far as Iam concerned. Easyly shot to 175 yards...
Here is a factory pic of an expanded Gold Dot - they really do not expand this uniformily - but close...
Here are some real life expanded Gold Dots
Here are some XTP tests....
This is an old thread you might want to check out...
http://www.huntingnet.com/forum/tm.aspx?m=1791957
Keep in mind all of this is opinion - you will get to make the final choice... have fun...
the first post, the one in la-la land,had more viable information but I forgot a lot of it - have a ton more information if you want it...
mike
09-09-2008, 03:35 PM
#17
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: MICHIGAN
Posts: 2,568
RE: Shooting Muzzle loader $$
With that Omega don't be surprized if you get a crud ring with loose T7.
In Michigan about the middle of March hit the wal marts for close out saveings on Pyrodex about $8.00 to $10.00 a pound, T 7 was $11.00 a pound for 2 years running now.
Another place to get sabots.
http://www.mmpsabots.com/
Williams of DavisonMiprices on bullets Speer and Hornaday are hard to beat. Last time I was in there (spring) I bought Speer gold dots by the 100 box for $18.78
http://www.williamsgunsight.com/
Al
In Michigan about the middle of March hit the wal marts for close out saveings on Pyrodex about $8.00 to $10.00 a pound, T 7 was $11.00 a pound for 2 years running now.
Another place to get sabots.
http://www.mmpsabots.com/
Williams of DavisonMiprices on bullets Speer and Hornaday are hard to beat. Last time I was in there (spring) I bought Speer gold dots by the 100 box for $18.78
http://www.williamsgunsight.com/
Al
09-09-2008, 03:37 PM
#18
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location:
Posts: 3,246
RE: Shooting Muzzle loader $$
ORIGINAL: sabotloader
I should tell you right off the get-go I am totally biased -mike
I should tell you right off the get-go I am totally biased -mike
Chap
09-09-2008, 04:56 PM
#19
Nontypical Buck
Thread Starter
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Michigan
Posts: 3,329
RE: Shooting Muzzle loader $$
Guys thanks a lot for all this information.
I'm going to take Sabatloaders advice and go with the .452 Speer Gold Dots at 250gr. So according to Cayugad I need the black sabots. So are all black sabots appropriate? I'm sure there are different brands. Whichbrand would you all recommend? Is crushed rib sabot that Cayugad mentions is that a brand?
Also I notice you guys saying that you shoot 777-2f. What is the 2f or ff or whatever that means? Are there different levels of 777?
I will also be getting a volume measuring tool. Can you guys recommend a good one? I'm also going to need a tool to pour it into the volume tool. Can you recommend one of those?
Any thing else that I need to know?
Thanks
Tom
I'm going to take Sabatloaders advice and go with the .452 Speer Gold Dots at 250gr. So according to Cayugad I need the black sabots. So are all black sabots appropriate? I'm sure there are different brands. Whichbrand would you all recommend? Is crushed rib sabot that Cayugad mentions is that a brand?
Also I notice you guys saying that you shoot 777-2f. What is the 2f or ff or whatever that means? Are there different levels of 777?
I will also be getting a volume measuring tool. Can you guys recommend a good one? I'm also going to need a tool to pour it into the volume tool. Can you recommend one of those?
Any thing else that I need to know?
Thanks
Tom
09-09-2008, 06:02 PM
#20
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location:
Posts: 3,246
RE: Shooting Muzzle loader $$
ORIGINAL: statjunk
Guys thanks a lot for all this information.
I'm going to take Sabatloaders advice and go with the .452 Speer Gold Dots at 250gr. So according to Cayugad I need the black sabots. So are all black sabots appropriate? I'm sure there are different brands. Whichbrand would you all recommend? Is crushed rib sabot that Cayugad mentions is that a brand?
Also I notice you guys saying that you shoot 777-2f. What is the 2f or ff or whatever that means? Are there different levels of 777?
I will also be getting a volume measuring tool. Can you guys recommend a good one? I'm also going to need a tool to pour it into the volume tool. Can you recommend one of those?
Any thing else that I need to know?
Thanks
Tom
Guys thanks a lot for all this information.
I'm going to take Sabatloaders advice and go with the .452 Speer Gold Dots at 250gr. So according to Cayugad I need the black sabots. So are all black sabots appropriate? I'm sure there are different brands. Whichbrand would you all recommend? Is crushed rib sabot that Cayugad mentions is that a brand?
Also I notice you guys saying that you shoot 777-2f. What is the 2f or ff or whatever that means? Are there different levels of 777?
I will also be getting a volume measuring tool. Can you guys recommend a good one? I'm also going to need a tool to pour it into the volume tool. Can you recommend one of those?
Any thing else that I need to know?
Thanks
Tom
This many help.
Chap
