sabot question

dphobby · 06-18-2008, 06:23 PM

Was out shooting my disc. 45, trying to get the groups to tighten up just a little (1.5 to 2 in. at 100 yds.) is the best I can get which is an improvement. Shooting 100gr. 777 fff. and 200 gr. shock waves with the supplied sabots, spit patch between every shot. Tried some brown knight high pressure sabots also, I went to find some of the sabots and 90% of the sabots I found had at least one or two petals broken off. Loading seemed to be a little harder than I would like, two hands but a little too much pressure. When I tied 200 yds. it got worse 6-8 " groups. Could the sabots falling apart be most of the problem?

oldsmellhound · 06-18-2008, 06:44 PM

dphobby,

The petals shearing off of the sabots isn't always an indication of sabot failure- I know that the sabots supplied with PR's Dead Center bullets are designed to shear off. I've shot the .357 195 grainers and been very impressed with the accuracy and consistency (although less impressed with the price

).

On the other hand, my favorite load right now with my .45 is 95 grains 777 fffG with a Hornady 200 grain SST, and I've never had any petals shear off. Maybe Hornady's sabots are made a little tougher??? I doubt that 5 grains of powder would make enough more velocity to start damaging the sabots.

You could either try backing off your powder charge by 5 or 10 grains, or try some SST's instead and see if you have better luck.

Also, if you're shooting 1.5 inch groups, I wouldn't complain too much. The best 3-shot group I've ever shot with the load mentioned above was 1.25". Average group size is probably more like 1.75". Hope you get it figured out!

bronko22000 · 06-18-2008, 07:11 PM

dp - A 1 1/2" group is very good at 100 yds for a ML. Heck I know some centerfire rifles that won't shoot that good. Striving for 'perfection' can be frustrating. I'd say that you remember that load that has given you those groups consistantly and play around with other bullets, sabots, load combos and see if you can get the groups any better. If not, I wouldn't worry about it too much.

nchawkeye · 06-18-2008, 07:24 PM

Sounds like to me you are pushing it a little too fast...My Knight 50 didn't like more than 90gr of 777 and a 250 Shockwave...You can get that group under and inch, just takes some work...

I found that my Knight liked the T/C sabots over the ones supplied with the Hornady's or the MMP-24s that I bought...

It also prefers either Goex FFF or Pyrodex R-S over 777...

I also have to not only clean between shot but I also have to lightly oil and then run a dry patch through the bore...

I can change any of the above three conditions and the groups go to 1 1/2 to 2 inches at 100 yards...

At 150 yards, it shoots 2 1/2inch groups, might not be worth it to some, but I like to shoot...

cayugad · 06-18-2008, 08:07 PM

A 2" rifle at 100 yards is a good shooter. The broken petals is no reason for concern, especially in the Shockwaves. The 6-8" groups sound about normal if the 100 yard group is two inches. Granted it could be tighter, but 200 yards is a long way for a muzzleloader. Good shooting.

What you might want to try is different bullets. Some Barnes Expanders, Parker Ballistic Extremes, Nosler, some of them might do a better job for you out of a Knight rifle.

Actually I think you have a good rifle going, and the more you experiment the better it will get. Nice shooting.

dphobby · 06-19-2008, 04:49 AM

Come to think of it, I guess the sabots breaking away shouldn't have anything to do with it, considering that years ago TC had their break-away sabots which performed pretty darn good. I got the best grouping with 100gr. 777, less than that and the group would open up at 100 yds. Maybe next time I will try some xtp's with the knight sabots. I just hear about people shooting 2" groups at 200yds. Maybe there is a little luck involved in a group like that ?????? Just kinda fun playing around with different combinations. Thanx !!!!!

lemoyne · 06-19-2008, 07:03 AM

dphobby
Look at conditions very closely, when there is no wind I can occasionally get groups under 3/4 inch with any wind that opens up to an inch or 1.25" the same goes for 200yds only much more so. If you really want to work on something at that point you can try a different powder, get a better scope or improve the trigger pull if you try a different powder try your bullets over different powders often shoot with different bullets. Lee

diehardhunter · 06-19-2008, 07:20 AM

Are those the green sabots??? If so I had the same problem with them they shot good >2" but there was always atleast 2 of the 4 petals sheared off. I dont think its any reason for concern as long as they shoot consistent.

Die Hard

Rifle Loony · 06-19-2008, 07:32 AM

Knight "high pressure" sabots are stiffer than "regular" sabots, for obvious reasons. Their function is to hold up to, and provide a better seal for, the "magnum" charges of three 50 grain pellets, ect. I've found, by accident, that they will not produce good accuracy in my inline with the 100 to 110 grain charges of FFg that I use.

The purpose of the sabot is to seal the bore to provide movement of the bullet, and toengage the rifling while the under caliberbullet is in the bore, and impart the proper spin on the bullet. Their next responsiblity is to leave the bullet assoon as possible after exiting the bore, to avoid imparting any non-areodynamic influence on the bullet's flight. This is done with centrifical forces and with "wind" actually getting under the petals and making them peel up and off. The stiffness and design of the"high pressure" sabots going at the lesser velocities of regular charge weights makes shedding the sabot difficult and thus the sabot stays with the bullet too long. This greatly degrades accuracy.....

My "accidental finding" was figuring that "high pressure" sabots would perform like any other when regular ones weren't available to me one time. My accuracy with a proven load went in the crapper, and of course I needed to know why that was. Upon a few tripsup and down the range I discovered shed high pressure sabots that were a considerable distance down range beyond what I knew regular ones would be found....to the tune of finding them in the neighborhood of the 50 yard mark. Regular one would shed and be found in the first 20 yards or so.

Being the anyalist that I suffer being, I tried both kinds at a later date and found with the same 100 grain charge of FFg, that they were indeed not interchangable. I figure it is/was due to the fact that the high pressure sabots were staying on the bullet too long and causing the bullet to veer unpredictablyfrom its normal provenpattern of accuracy. Groups fired with high pressure sabots were in the neighborhood of 6 to 8 inches at 100 yards, where regular ones like T/C's and Hornady shot into an inch or less. This was done with a Ruger 77/50 and 240 grain XTP's.

spaniel · 06-19-2008, 11:02 AM

Petals breaking off is no biggie -- I shoot a long of 1-in or slightly better groups at 100 (and MOA or so to 400 yds) with the 200gr SW in a .50 Omega and 110gr 777. I have full sabots, sabots miss 1 petal, and sabots missing 2 petals. Does not seem to affect accuracy in any way.

Two questions to consider:
1) Do you know that theGUN will shoot tighter groups with ANY load? My gun did not shoot 1-in groups with anything until I installed aluminum pillars, bedded the action, and floated the barrel.
2) Do you know that YOU can shoot tighter groups with any gun on that day? I know it sounds strange, but once I was about ready to use my ML as a fence post because it wouldn't behave. Then I pulled out my 300WM and couldn't shoot that well either. Practiced my trigger control for 1/2 hr with the 300 and then went back to the ML, and all of a sudden my groups were nice!