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Old 11-19-2007, 08:37 PM   #1
 
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Default got groups

tried lose powder ( 777 ff ) for the first time today
i started with 80gr and a 240gr hornady xtp
took three shots at fifty yards to see the groupings
as god as my witness a quater could have just about coverd
the three shotsmoved up to 90grs same bullet and the groups
were about 2 ta 2 1/2 inches and about three inches higher than the
first group of three, more velocity higher grouping??? i dont know
moved target to 100yrds and went back to 80grs of powder and groups
of three opend up to about4 inches[][]
it got dark so i had to pack it in
why was 80grs of powder shooting so well at 50yrds but opening up
so much at 100yrds????
also spit patch after each shot both sidesand dry patch both sides
gun is T/C Encore 50 cal
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Old 11-19-2007, 09:02 PM   #2
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Default RE: got groups

It is possable that 80 gr was not stablizeing the bullet beyond a certain distance, or that you pulled one or that th e wind was changing speed and direction and spreading them out. We all try to shot a clover leaf once in a while but the real test is repeatability if you can average an inch under good conditions you are doing fine. Lee
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Old 11-19-2007, 10:32 PM   #3
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Default RE: got groups

I have been shooting 240gr hornady xtp with 85 grs of pyrodex p (fffg) which if I remember from I a thread I had just in the last week, pyrodex p fffg = 777 ffg. I think that is right someone will say something about it.

Anyway, I shot a four shot group one flier with 3 touching at 100 yrds (only did that one time), but shot 1 3/4 to 3 in groups all day at 50 yrds.

sadly I don't know how much this will help you, I am using a knight usak with musket caps, 22 in barrel. and switch to .430 xtp with green mmp sabots. but was shooting 45 cal xtps with mag express sabots.
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Old 11-19-2007, 11:17 PM   #4
 
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Default RE: got groups

thanks guys like i said it got dark on me
so i didnt have time to up the load to check it out
i also have some 300gr hornady xtp,s that i havent tried at 100yrds
or at all for that matter
lemoyne i think your theory is probly correct at a closer range it had
the stability ( velocity )it needed but lost it the futher it went
ive read on here that many of the encore shooters are using 100grns to 120grns
with good results
in the past i was using 2 50grn 777 pellets but groups were very,very big, buti was also using
a cheap rest that i had to push the forend into, witch probably wasnt helping
this time out i used a rolled up sleeping bag with no pressure on the forend
even the 4 inch groups were a big improvment.
in your opinion should i sight in at 100yrds, that way i can adjust my powder to get the
velocitys ( stability ) to keep a decent group at that range?????
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Old 11-21-2007, 05:57 AM   #5
 
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Default RE: got groups

2 1/2 ta three inchesat100yds 0r 2 inches at 50yrds

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Old 11-21-2007, 08:15 AM   #6
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Default RE: got groups

romex21, If you are shooting a break action like the Encore or the Triumph you may have to float the forearm, I had to find two thick rubber warshers to put between the fore arm and the mounting studs before I could get mine to stay under 1.5 inches now I can get colverleaf groups with 3 shots once in a while and hold 1.5 unless the wind is nasty. It is also my experance that the 1-28 twist likes a longer bullet best as a rule, according to the greenhill formula a bullet that is between .9 and 1.1 long should be ideal for the 1-28 twist, that is why I like my System One and the 1-38 twist it does a vey nice job with the 230 240 &250 gr bullets.
I would suggest floating the fore arm if you have a break action it runs in the back of my mind that somewhere I read that you had an Encore, and if you want to try a bullet with in the right length for a 1-28 you might give the 50/40 200gr Shock Wave or some 50/40 blue MMP sabots and the 200gr 10mm[40 cal ] bullets a try with at least 90 gr. Lee
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Old 11-21-2007, 01:28 PM   #7
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Default RE: got groups

I doubt that it's a stability issue with 240gr bullets. 1:28" twist is sufficient to stabilize a 240gr bullet at well under the velocity that 80gr of T7 will produce. Also, the only effect velocity has on stability is in determining the rate of rotation when the bullet leaves the muzzle. If the bullet has enough spin to be stable at the muzzle, it'll be stable at any range and velocity as it goes down range. The reason is that, while there is a lot of drag acting to slow the bullets linear velocity, there is very little drag acting to slow its rate of rotation (angular velocity). Think about a spinning top (the childs toy) or a gyroscope. When you spin a top it will spin for a relatively long time, more sometimes a minute or more. The total flight time of a bullet is less than one second typically, meaning that the rotational rate has retarded very little.

Also, while there is such a thing as an "over stable" bullet, this is not an issue at the relatively short ranges of muzzleloaders and rifle (except in the case of extreme range shooting...i.e. 1000yards+). The problem with overstability is the tendency of the bullet come down sideways or even base first on the steep long range trajectories because the nose so strongly wants to stay pointed the same direction it was pointing when it left the barrel.

If it was not stablized at all you wouldn't be getting 3" groups at any range, and it you did hit the target you'd see oblong or profile bullet holes because the bullet would be tumbling.

I, personally, think that there is something else wrong. Others have suggested modifying the foreend to "free-float" the barrel (the quotes are because I don't think that it can be truly free floated, which implys NO contact between the stock and barrel). I don't own an Omega, so I don't have any experience with the Omega specific problems.

Another thing you might do is get some real sandbags or a proper shooting rest and bag the gun in properly on the bench.

Attention to detail is critical, especially with your swabbing technique. Since you started with a good group and they got worse from there, I'd think that there was a problem with loading/cleaning technique. Since you are shooting T7 I'd suspect the problem may be "crud ring" related. If you have the crud ring toward the breech end (it usually forms right where the bullet/sabot seats against the powder), and you are not swabbing it out every time, the bullet will seat against the crud ring and not the powder charge, which will cause erratic velocity and poor accuracy. The problem is that, in my experience with other rifles and T7, the crud ring can be so hard as to make you think that you've hit the bottom of the barrel when swabbing, but you have to push through it with short strokes (which is important so you down get the jag stuck in the bore), and then scrub it until you can't feel a change in resistance with each stroke.

Or, as a last resort, you can sell the Omega and the T7 to your least favorite buddy and get yourself a Savage 10ML-II and shoot AA 5744. Excellent accuracy, no swabbing. [8D]

Mike


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Old 11-23-2007, 08:56 AM   #8
 
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Default RE: got groups

don"t want to sell just yet, i think its me more than the Encore
im going to put the washers in to float the forend and see if that
makes any change inPOI,, for you that have done this how thick
are the washers that you have used??? and also did it make a change in POI??
im also gonna sand down the ears a little on the forend that cover the hinge pin
i have noticed some rub marks on the barrelmade bythe forend,, hopefully the washers
will cure this
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Old 11-23-2007, 09:21 AM   #9
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Default RE: got groups

I had to do it on my Triumph which is a similar design,I put a regular steel warsher against the forearm aand a 3/16 thick rubber warsher against the stud, it did not change the POI it just sucked the groups together by about half. Lee
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Old 11-23-2007, 01:38 PM   #10
 
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Default RE: got groups

sounds good to me!!!!
the weather is cold and windy now so it may be
a coulple days before i can try it.
thanks Lee
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