White Ultramag questions

[silverstreak]

I bought a White Model 97, 50 caliber Ultramag new last year. I have shot it a few times but have not killed anything. The reason I bought a White is because I wanted to use it in Oregon for deer and it must be an open system in order to use it in Oregon. You have to use iron sights and no scope, conicle bullets, loose powder and cannot use 209 primers. This year I am going to be hunting for Whitetail Deer in Eastern Idaho where there are no restrictions' since it is a short weapons season and not a specific muzzleloader season I can use a scope of any power, 209 primers, sabot bullets and stick powder.
Today I went to a gun dealer in San Jose, Ca. which is close to where I live. He recommended using 2 sticks of APP Powder which is a total of 100 grains. He also recommended 223 grain Powerbelt Bullets. What do you guys think of this combination? The reason I'm asking this question is after I bought this from him he proceeds to tell me that he is a traditionalist and does not believe in in-line muzzleloaders and that some states are trying to outlaw them. I had my rifle with me and he tried to insert a 209 primer into the nipple and it would not stay, it would fall out. I know it is the right nipple and bolt since it came with the rifle in a separate container and marked for 209 primer use. He finally got it to stay in the nipple by pointing the barrel down and fired it. He then had a heck of a time removing the fired primer. Is this the way White Rifles work with 209 Primers? Is the 209 primer superior to the #11 magnum primer or can I use the #11 with my load? Any information would be appreciated and thanks in advance.

[Underclocked]

Okay, as tothat dealer'srecommendations and opinions - horse hockey.

Forget the sticks, forget the PowerBelts. If you want to shoot plastic, then try some XTPs or Shockwaves or Speer Gold Dots in the 200-300 grain weight range. Of course you would need appropriate sized sabots for the loose bullets. 100 grains of FFg Triple7 loose will probably get you what you need. The Whites tend not to work so well with 209 nipples but Sabotloader uses his without issue so far as I know.But don't despair, buy either RWS 1075+ or the new Remington #11 caps and you are in business.

Your rifles barrel is probably from .504 to .505 land to land measure so you will find loading most .50 sabots to be quite easy compared to many .50 caliber muzzleloaders.

Sabotloader is your man as he has the same rifle and loves sabots. Scope mounts will be more of an issue than loads, as so far the Ultra Mags seem to shoot most everything pretty well.

[sabotloader]

silverstreak

He recommended using 2 sticks of APP Powder which is a total of 100 grains. He also recommended 223 grain Powerbelt Bullets.

I would not agree with either of those two thoughts... The Umag is .504 I am not sure that a powerbelt would even stay in the barrel. APP is a good powder by a lot of people's standards - i will not useit and I would not use the sticks... the recommendation coming in now is to crush the sticks after you put them down the barrel - shoot if you are suppose to crush them just shoot loose powder.

If you feel youneed to shoot pellets shoot T7 or Pyro pellets other wise shoot loose pwder if you can.

I had my rifle with me and he tried to insert a 209 primer into the nipple and it would not stay, it would fall out. I know it is the right nipple and bolt since it came with the rifle in a separate container and marked for 209 primer use.

There are two possiblities here - 1 -you got the old original 209 breech plug without theretaining spring or 2- you have the new one bot the spring is not there....

Since you mention the primer stuck after shooting I am betting you have the old one. If you have time e-mail Doc White- doc@whitemuzzleloading.com
See if he has one of the new style with retaining spring.

otherwise - use the #11 plug and Pyro Pellets..

Bullets - It my thought the best deer bullet out there is a Nosler .451/260 grain Partion HP in a MMP HPH-12 .451/.452-50 cal sabot. I shoot it from my White with a 110 grains of T7-2f and a Remington 209-4 primer

If you do not want to spend the money on a Nosler and I do not blame you the second choice for deer would be a .452/250 grain Speer Bonded Gold Dot with the same powder load.

if you want to use a Power Belt go heavier at least a 295 - they are really nothing but an elongated lead ball and they can tend to come apart if driven to fast.

There are lot of us Umag users on this site so I am sure you will get other opinions also...

Good luck...

[cayugad]

Put in your #11 breech plug and nipple. Get some CCI Magnum caps. Then dump 70 grains of loose Triple Se7en 3f or 80 grains of loose Triple Se7en 2f and a 460 grain BullShop conical without a wad. That rifle will outshoot any power belt you can find with that combination, drop any deer that stands, and go off every time. Plus you do not have to swab the barrel. That is a great rifle and the guy at the gunshop did not know squat about a White Rifle. Why people love to tell you how to shoot a rifle they have no knowledge of is beyond me.

By the way, my White Ultra Mag .504 shoots a .504 or .5045 conical from Bullshop. I use the same powder I mention and at 100 yards the groups I can shoot with it would amaze most people... great gun you have there.

[silverstreak]

Thanks for your quick and honest responses. This guy at the gun shop had never heard of White muzzleloaders and when he put down the in-line muzzleloaders the way he did, it started to make me question what he had just sold me and you guys have confirmed that for me and thanks a lot for your honesty. I will e-mail Doc White regarding my 209 problem.

[cayugad]

http://bullshop.gunloads.com/prices.html also the 500 grain conicals in .5045 would work real good in your rifle. When they hit they blow right through. If you miss, pity the trees behind what you shot at because they will go through them as well if they are not too thick.

[Redpep]

If you own a U-Mag, you own an incredible gun. I own 6, my U-Mag is my favorite, and one of my most accurate.
460 504.5 Bull Shop, T-7ff 85gns and a 1/16" fiber wad.

http://s55.photobucket.com/albums/g132/redpep/?action=view¤t=U-Mag.jpg

[sabotloader]

silverstreak

This year I am going to be hunting for Whitetail Deer in Eastern Idaho where there are no restrictions' since it is a short weapons season

Just a thought... if you are whitetail hunting in south east Idaho - you probably will not want a heavy conical out there in the desert land with extended ranges.

I earlier suggested the 260 Nosler or the Gold Dot which is what I would use. But maybe you as somewhat new to game of ML shooting might want to consider a 250 SST. The 250 Shockwave will not fit your barrel that well but the SST (same bullet - different sabot) should. I hate the SST @ short ranges (anything less than 75/100) but after that they seem to work for people just fine... me I would still use the 260 Nosler.

If you are e-mailing Doc - ask him about scope bases also - if he does not have any let me know and I give you a couple of additional thoughts....

[gleason.chapman]

ORIGINAL: Redpep

If you own a U-Mag, you own an incredible gun. I own 6, my U-Mag is my favorite, and one of my most accurate.
460 504.5 Bull Shop, T-7ff 85gns and a 1/16" fiber wad.

http://s55.photobucket.com/albums/g132/redpep/?action=view¤t=U-Mag.jpg

Wow, accurate shooting gun and bullet combo. Very nice. Best Wishes. Chap

[Underclocked]

It'snice for the Ultra Pimp to see the fruits of his labors.

silverstreak, you can see "some" of Bullshop's offerings in this fuzzy pic http://home.mchsi.com/~rltsr/bullshop.jpg

You should get yourself 200 or so of those 460 grain MT NEx in .5045 in case you wantsome serious horsepower.