knight/barnes or t/c shockwaves?

outdoorsmen · 08-05-2007, 01:03 PM

I have a knight master hunter that i'm not overly happy with accuracy wise. i have shot it for about 4 years now and haven't really found "the load". i started using the knight 250gr. red hot with 100gr. 777 pellets (black box). i then switched to the knight 245gr sbt and 100gr 777 pellets. now the last i tried was the new 245gr sbt e z load with 100gr 777 mags (red box).
i was talking with a guy the other day that said that he read that the all copper bullets didn't group as tight as say a shockwave do to the fact that the copper won't give or conform to the rifling. and the boat tail design is not good in a sabot because of the gap at the tail end left between the bullet and the bottom of the sabot. a flat wall buller that sits flat against the sabot will be better for accuracy. and if its made of a softer core it will catch the rifling better and be more accurate.
what you thinik?

frontier gander · 08-05-2007, 01:09 PM

The bullet in the sabot never touches the bore in the first place, so that guy telling you that "copper bullets dont group as tight as say a shockwave do to the fact that the copper won't give or conform to the rifling" Is blowing smoke out of his tail. The sabot is what grips the rifling. Try a different sabot with those copper bullets and see how they do then.

outdoorsmen · 08-05-2007, 01:13 PM

yeah i know that the bullet doesn't touch the barrel, the sabot does. but he said that the shcokwaves are softer and more forgiving. and they have at flat end, at a tapered.
the ez loads did group better for me then the old sabots did.

cayugad · 08-05-2007, 01:29 PM

While this is not normally recommend.. have you ever tried boosting the powder charge? I find the Knight with a copper bullet like the Barnes for best accuracy needs magnum charges. In loose powder I shoot 120 grains and pellets I was shooting three of them. When I was shooting them with 100 grains, the accuracy was acceptable but not what I expected. So one day I decided to really push them. That Knight smoothed right out and started really sending them down range.

Just a thought.

sabotloader · 08-05-2007, 01:44 PM

FG

Well, I think the guy has somewhat of a point, in fact it has been discussed on other forums.... the all copper bullets do not obturate very well at all they are really pretty solid... now on the other hand copper clad lead bullets do obturate to a certain point and force the sabot up even tighter on the lands and grooves.

I shoot Nosler's (til I run out due to price) but they do have lead exposed on the bottom of the bullet... the force of the gas pressure on the the bottom of the sabot also forces the bullet to obturate within the sabot increasing the gas seal as the bullet runs up the barrel.... can it obturate enough to fill the whole barrel? not a chance...

One guy did some experimenting with a 50 cal Speer (no gas check)inserted into a 50 cal ML. The bullet was tight enough with a fouled barrel to offer some resistance going down but on a clean barrel it would slide down really easy, anyway he experimented with this for awhile. While the bullet shot OK from his ML, because it did obturate it was not reliable... some expanded more than other creating different pressures and of course different POI's...

Outdoorsaman - if you are willing to shoot those expensive bullets - you might try some Nosler's Partitions- they shoot very well in all of my ML's, of course they are not as areodynamic as the others. The .451/260's are an easy 175 yard bullet and the .451/300 will get you to 200 with plenty energy to spare.

I shot a toehead whitetail last year @ 170+ yards with a 260 it was a complete pass through - destroyed all the vitals inside the chest and came out behind the right front shoulder.

good luck in your search....

flint head · 08-05-2007, 02:05 PM

I'm not happy with the way my Knight Disc Elite is shooting either... one day it shot a good 1 5/8" 100 yard group with 3 777 pellets and a 290 Barnes TMZ the next day with the same load it shot terrible. It has been very hot in S.C. so maybe that's a contributor. I really like this gun but it's being a pain right now. I also tried the old sand by with this gun... 100 grains of 777 ffg and a 200 shockwave still only about 3 1/2" groups

outdoorsmen · 08-05-2007, 02:18 PM

as much as i hate to questions this but it makes me wonder...is it a knight thing??? i mean i work in a gun shop, and well sell a ton of T/C guns, omegas for the price and the pro hunter cause that's what everyone on tv is shooting. well anyway, i can't hardly give a kight away. and these guys come back in to get more bullets and i ask them how there gun shoot and i get all these stories of cutting one ragged hole at 100yds. and i'm thinking to myself, i said self, i have a $1000 rifle that barely keeps the bullets on paper at 100yds, maybe it's time for a switch to the other side adn get on the bandwagon.

sabotloader · 08-05-2007, 03:07 PM

outdoorsmen

just my personal opinion, but I really do not think it is all the gun, it is just a matter of finding the right combination. I honestly do not know how much you have shot you MH, but sometimes it does take awhile. I think most people that Knights built after Tony Knights' rein are somewhat suspect to those built while he was in charge. But, the fact is it has a GM barrel on it and it should shoot just great....

Quote:

these guys come back in to get more bullets and i ask them how there gun shoot and i get all these stories of cutting one ragged hole at 100yds

Well, I really wonder about that statement, but then again listen to some of the people on this forum, that are wondering the same thing you are because of all the sub 1 MOA groups that people claim to shoot.

I just read one post where cayugad suggests that you might have to bump up the charge in a Knight to improve accuracy, I can not tell you as I do not shoot Knights - but I do shoot several GM barrels and they do like their powder - in fact I am shooting 3f in them to get pressure quicker...

Good luck....

rem 700 · 08-05-2007, 03:30 PM

Get yourself some loose powder and trash them pellets

You seem to like 777, so how about some FFG. I would say experiment from 90 to 150 grains. Go up in 10 grain increments and once your groups get tight, fine tune by 5 grains. Loose powder will give you that 10gr charge difference that will make you go from 3" to 1.5" groups. Sure, pellets work perfect for some guys but you'll save money and get more accuracy, probably, from loose powder.

batchief909 · 08-05-2007, 03:32 PM

[align=left]I agree with SL'er. I've shot a few newer Knights that didn't shoot as well as Tony's earlier designs. (MK-85 was the best Knight I ever owned) Now I DO have a couple sidelocks with GM barrels that will shoot "lights out" with several combinations. One has to wonder about all those claims of "one ragged hole". It seems to me that Knight and TC are dwelling more on the "easier to clean" aspect vs the "accuracy" dept. nowadays.

I'd be "smoked" if I bought a Pro Hunter, only to find out that it didn't shoot any better than an Omega. Which in my trials,,,,,didn't shoot that great.
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