Different Sabots Can Change Your Groups

[Semisane]

Did a couple of load comparisons with the Lyman Mustangin my last range session.

In one, I fired twofive-shot groups of thesame bullet and powder- a300 grainHornady HP/XTP over 100 grains volumeof Triple 7 FFG with a CCI 209 primer. O*****up was firedwith Harvester Crush Rib sabots, and onewith MMP HPH-24 sabots. All powder charges were weighed at 77.8 grain weight. Range was 50 yards from a bench.

You can see the results in the targetsbelow.

Velocitiesin both groupswere very close, and very consistent. The Harvester had a low velocity of 1726 fps and a high of 1754.The MMP had a low of 1709 and a high of 1752.

The Harvester group was 1 5/8 inches center to center, with four of the shots into 3/4".The MMP group was 3 1/2 inches withfour into 1 5/8".

Amazing what a little thing like a different sabot can do.

[gleason.chapman]

see below. How do people get two pictures in a Post without doing 2 posts?

[gleason.chapman]

ORIGINAL: Semisane

Did a couple of load comparisons with the Lyman Mustangin my last range session.

In one, I fired twofive-shot groups of thesame bullet and powder- a300 grainHornady HP/XTP over 100 grains volumeof Triple 7 FFG with a CCI 209 primer. O*****up was firedwith Harvester Crush Rib sabots, and onewith MMP HPH-24 sabots. All powder charges were weighed at 77.8 grain weight. Range was 50 yards from a bench.

You can see the results in the targetsbelow.

Velocitiesin both groupswere very close, and very consistent. The Harvester had a low velocity of 1726 fps and a high of 1754.The MMP had a low of 1709 and a high of 1752.

The Harvester group was 1 5/8 inches center to center, with four of the shots into 3/4".The MMP group was 3 1/2 inches withfour into 1 5/8".

Amazing what a little thing like a different sabot can do.

Semisane, Very nice shooting. Good you weighed your charges. That makes a big difference. Sabots make a >>>HUGE<<< difference. These are 300g Hornday SSTs, with supplied sabot,shot from a Savage 10ML using 44g of AA 5744 smokeless, Federal Primer, shot at 92.5 yards off sand bags:




This is a TC ShockWave with supplied Sabot, 300g, same primer, same load, shot at 92.5 off sand bags on the same day (only shot 10 shots that day--Last Saturday).




The bullets are the same made by Hornady 300g. Powder same charge, powder was weighted, weighing makes a huge difference also with smokeless I know that from using lee Dippers, will never again just use the dippers. For the Hornady the sabot went down the barrel with "about the right pressure", not too hard, not too soft. The TC SW, it was very difficult to get the bullet loaded. I had to use 2 hands and really force it.

"Tighter the load, the tighter the group is what they say over on Doug's Savage ML Board".

That statement is true based on my experience with my gun. I do use Crushed rib in my Omega and Knight and TC FL and I get good accuracy with those sabots. I am buying 1 package each of MMP #12, #24, 3petal EZ to test the SST/SW with each of these, because you cannot gaurantee a bullet seller will use the same sabot year to year. Once you get an accurate load/bullet/sabot/primer combination write it down and stick with it, but you must know exactly the components of the load. I name my picture of each target my load, for example my Picture name was TC_ShockWave_300g_2007_06_02_AA_5744_44g_supplied_ sabot_Federal209a_92 yards.jpg.
In this way I know exactly what I shot. I place these under the "Savage Folder".

I believe sabotsmake more difference than bullet type or powder type. I don't believe Primer makes that much difference, as long as it is hot enough. This is what I have found, I am not say everyone will find this with their gun, they are are individuals just like we are. I would say

"Sabots make a HUGE difference is grouping/accuracy therefore shot placement, therefore quick killing potential, which is what we are all looking for."

Chap Gleason

[Semisane]

How do people get two pictures in a Post without doing 2 posts?

OK Chap, you did it is your last comment. How????

[oldrookie]

Chap, I might disagree with the issue of primers. I find in my Optima the 777 primer to be more consistant than other primers. Only reason I think so, I ran out of 777 primers and used others in the same session and setup and the group rose higher.

I have also foundmy rifle is better suited for the crushed ribbed sabots. I throw a spit patch and dry patch down it after every shot. Big difference for me in groups.

Good shooting by the way!

[Semisane]

Man CHAP, that's a fine group with the TC Shockwave (ain't nothing wrong with the SSTs either).

You may be right about tighter sabots = tighter groups in the Savage.

The TC SW, it was very difficult to get the bullet loaded. I had to use 2 hands and really force it.

In my Mustang, which has a loose bore for a 50 caliber, neither the Harvesters nor the MMPs are really tight. The Harvesters are the looser of the two (I can easily ram them home with one hand) and they shootbetter than the tighter MMPs.

Here's an intersting finding. The bases of the fired Harvesters were clearly larger than the bases of the fired MMPs (see picture). The Harvesters measured .561, .563 and .565, and the MMPs measured .512, .514 and .521.

[gleason.chapman]

ORIGINAL: Semisane

OK Chap, you did it is your last comment. How????

I had to create a post, add one picture in it, then publish it. Then I "Quoted" that post and added anothter pictue to it. However I still had the 1st post, it wouldn't let me delete all the text. So how do people add two pictues without doing two clugy posts is a more accurate question?
Chap

[gleason.chapman]

ORIGINAL: oldrookie

Chap, I might disagree with the issue of primers. I find in my Optima the 777 primer to be more consistant than other primers. Only reason I think so, I ran out of 777 primers and used others in the same session and setup and the group rose higher.

I have also foundmy rifle is better suited for the crushed ribbed sabots. I throw a spit patch and dry patch down it after every shot. Big difference for me in groups.

Good shooting by the way!

I have never shot the 777 primers. I have shot federal and Winchester, and they don't make a difference in my guns. Chap

[gleason.chapman]

ORIGINAL: Semisane

Man CHAP, that's a fine group with the TC Shockwave (ain't nothing wrong with the SSTs either).

You may be right about tighter sabots = tighter groups in the Savage.

In my Mustang, which has a loose bore for a 50 caliber, neither the Harvesters nor the MMPs are really tight. The Harvesters are the looser of the two (I can easily ram them home with one hand) and they shootbetter than the tighter MMPs.

Here's an intersting finding. The bases of the fired Harvesters were clearly larger than the bases of the fired MMPs (see picture). The Harvesters measured .561, .563 and .565, and the MMPs measured .512, .514 and .521.

I think the harvesters are holding the gastighter behind the bullet because they are spread outmore OR they are weaker in the bootom and are flatening out against the bullet to get it going. Which do you think it is, reading the bottom of the sabots? All the petals intact, like a daisy is they way they are suppose to look and these batchesboth look fine to me. I have heard that MMP are stronger plastic than Harvester, so that may also be the difference. About an hour ago, I just ordered a bag of "short black" MMP12, MMP24, 3Petal EZ and Orange from MMP directly, $45.97 delivered, so I will have the right sabots for any combo. I have a lot of crushed rib (6 packages) and a package of regular harvester sabots. With this I can experiment around with the 300g XTP and Gold dots in my Savage. Chap

[Semisane]

I don't know if the Harvesters are weaker, but they're definately softer than the MMPs. Taking the base of the fired sabots between my thumb and forefinger, I can squeese and flex the Harvester much easier than the MMP.

Maybe the softer material is sealing the bore better and is the reason why I got better groups with the Harvester. At any rate that's just one load. Up the charge 10 grains and the MMPs might be better.

Muzzle loaders are like women. You just never know what they'll do.