Smokeless Powder Muzzleloader
04-05-2007, 02:15 PM
#21
Nontypical Buck
Thread Starter
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Tennessee
Posts: 4,264
RE: Smokeless Powder Muzzleloader
Thanks guys, this is all alot of food for thought, but it'll help me for sure later.
BTW, yeoman, I actually use a .308, I chose the username before I got a gun, and I considered the .243.
BTW, yeoman, I actually use a .308, I chose the username before I got a gun, and I considered the .243.
04-05-2007, 05:45 PM
#23
Join Date: May 2006
Location:
Posts: 828
RE: Smokeless Powder Muzzleloader
ORIGINAL: yeoman
Younggun -
By varying the bullet/sabot/powder in the Savage smokeless you could have the 308, 270 and 243 all in one gun! Well, maybe at 1/3 the yardages.
Younggun -
By varying the bullet/sabot/powder in the Savage smokeless you could have the 308, 270 and 243 all in one gun! Well, maybe at 1/3 the yardages.
http://www.savagearms.com/images/pdf/manuals/MLII_loads.pdf
04-06-2007, 12:41 AM
#24
Giant Nontypical
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Saskatchewan Canada
Posts: 6,921
RE: Smokeless Powder Muzzleloader
Own smoked and a smokeless (savage) as well, I like em all
! Last year when it became time to add a new ML to my life I was between a TC Encore and the Savage. I bought the Savage based on experience with it, different then the other inlines I alreadyhad and ultimately cost of intial investment/ownership. I shoot the bee geez out of it last year and had a blast doing it. Right out of the box with a proven load in several other Savage owners guns I put up -1" at 100 group and ended up with 3 combos that would print 1" or better. So you could say i have been pleased with my decision to buy a 10II vs an encore. I used it to harvest 2 deer last fall with the same result - bang FLOP. I also used my ole faithful to harvest 1 deer with T7 powder and 240xtp - bang-hopple-flop. So both styles are effective on game and both shoot very well for me.
To the pros and cons from my standpoint:
PRO
> Cost of ownership
> Cleaning Ease
> Real "mag velocities" with accuracy and less felt recoil. Legit 200 plus gun, achieving 2300fps with next to no push is easily obtainable with 2 of the book loads. Branching out further can show + with slower powders"non book" loads that produce less peak pressure (safe).
> Accuracy
> Self Adjustable Trigger
> Sealed breech - zero blow back on mine
> Overbuilt/Safe
CON
> Weight (10+ scoped)
> Tupperware stock (flimsy but functional - I own a Syth/SS combo)
> Laminate stock - Heavy
> Ventliner (factory worked flawless for 50-70 shots but then need replacement, RW's expensivebut improved life, PR's more reasonable/improved life over Savage (100+)&modified breech plug (drill bushing), seems the way to go if you plan on shooting lots (have one on order as we speak)
> Bolt release ( requires the rear action screw to be released to remove, can cause POI shifts. I haven't seen this problem as i torque to the exact same specs each time. Other options are available such as an ez tool rachet or mods)
> Reloading knowledge and equipment required - scale, powder trickler andpowder funnel.
> OOPs forgot with the speeds you can hurl bullets out of the savage one may need to put more consideration intobullet construction,asthey aren't all made for the higherMV's that can be acheived with smokeless.
! Last year when it became time to add a new ML to my life I was between a TC Encore and the Savage. I bought the Savage based on experience with it, different then the other inlines I alreadyhad and ultimately cost of intial investment/ownership. I shoot the bee geez out of it last year and had a blast doing it. Right out of the box with a proven load in several other Savage owners guns I put up -1" at 100 group and ended up with 3 combos that would print 1" or better. So you could say i have been pleased with my decision to buy a 10II vs an encore. I used it to harvest 2 deer last fall with the same result - bang FLOP. I also used my ole faithful to harvest 1 deer with T7 powder and 240xtp - bang-hopple-flop. So both styles are effective on game and both shoot very well for me. To the pros and cons from my standpoint:
PRO
> Cost of ownership
> Cleaning Ease
> Real "mag velocities" with accuracy and less felt recoil. Legit 200 plus gun, achieving 2300fps with next to no push is easily obtainable with 2 of the book loads. Branching out further can show + with slower powders"non book" loads that produce less peak pressure (safe).
> Accuracy
> Self Adjustable Trigger
> Sealed breech - zero blow back on mine
> Overbuilt/Safe
CON
> Weight (10+ scoped)
> Tupperware stock (flimsy but functional - I own a Syth/SS combo)
> Laminate stock - Heavy
> Ventliner (factory worked flawless for 50-70 shots but then need replacement, RW's expensivebut improved life, PR's more reasonable/improved life over Savage (100+)&modified breech plug (drill bushing), seems the way to go if you plan on shooting lots (have one on order as we speak)
> Bolt release ( requires the rear action screw to be released to remove, can cause POI shifts. I haven't seen this problem as i torque to the exact same specs each time. Other options are available such as an ez tool rachet or mods)
> Reloading knowledge and equipment required - scale, powder trickler andpowder funnel.
> OOPs forgot with the speeds you can hurl bullets out of the savage one may need to put more consideration intobullet construction,asthey aren't all made for the higherMV's that can be acheived with smokeless.
04-06-2007, 05:56 AM
#25
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location:
Posts: 3,246
RE: Smokeless Powder Muzzleloader
ORIGINAL: skeeter 7MM
Own smoked and a smokeless (savage) as well, I like em all! Last year when it became time to add a new ML to my life I was between a TC Encore and the Savage. I bought the Savage based on experience with it, different then the other inlines I alreadyhad and ultimately cost of intial investment/ownership. I shoot the bee geez out of it last year and had a blast doing it. Right out of the box with a proven load in several other Savage owners guns I put up -1" at 100 group and ended up with 3 combos that would print 1" or better. So you could say i have been pleased with my decision to buy a 10II vs an encore. I used it to harvest 2 deer last fall with the same result - bang FLOP. I also used my ole faithful to harvest 1 deer with T7 powder and 240xtp - bang-hopple-flop. So both styles are effective on game and both shoot very well for me.
To the pros and cons from my standpoint:
PRO
> Cost of ownership
> Cleaning Ease
> Real "mag velocities" with accuracy and less felt recoil. Legit 200 plus gun, achieving 2300fps with next to no push is easily obtainable with 2 of the book loads. Branching out further can show + with slower powders"non book" loads that produce less peak pressure (safe).
> Accuracy
> Self Adjustable Trigger
> Sealed breech - zero blow back on mine
> Overbuilt/Safe
CON
> Weight (10+ scoped)
> Tupperware stock (flimsy but functional - I own a Syth/SS combo)
> Laminate stock - Heavy
> Ventliner (factory worked flawless for 50-70 shots but then need replacement, RW's expensivebut improved life, PR's more reasonable/improved life over Savage (100+)&modified breech plug (drill bushing), seems the way to go if you plan on shooting lots (have one on order as we speak)
> Bolt release ( requires the rear action screw to be released to remove, can cause POI shifts. I haven't seen this problem as i torque to the exact same specs each time. Other options are available such as an ez tool rachet or mods)
> Reloading knowledge and equipment required - scale, powder trickler andpowder funnel.
> OOPs forgot with the speeds you can hurl bullets out of the savage one may need to put more consideration intobullet construction,asthey aren't all made for the higherMV's that can be acheived with smokeless.
Own smoked and a smokeless (savage) as well, I like em all
! Last year when it became time to add a new ML to my life I was between a TC Encore and the Savage. I bought the Savage based on experience with it, different then the other inlines I alreadyhad and ultimately cost of intial investment/ownership. I shoot the bee geez out of it last year and had a blast doing it. Right out of the box with a proven load in several other Savage owners guns I put up -1" at 100 group and ended up with 3 combos that would print 1" or better. So you could say i have been pleased with my decision to buy a 10II vs an encore. I used it to harvest 2 deer last fall with the same result - bang FLOP. I also used my ole faithful to harvest 1 deer with T7 powder and 240xtp - bang-hopple-flop. So both styles are effective on game and both shoot very well for me. To the pros and cons from my standpoint:
PRO
> Cost of ownership
> Cleaning Ease
> Real "mag velocities" with accuracy and less felt recoil. Legit 200 plus gun, achieving 2300fps with next to no push is easily obtainable with 2 of the book loads. Branching out further can show + with slower powders"non book" loads that produce less peak pressure (safe).
> Accuracy
> Self Adjustable Trigger
> Sealed breech - zero blow back on mine
> Overbuilt/Safe
CON
> Weight (10+ scoped)
> Tupperware stock (flimsy but functional - I own a Syth/SS combo)
> Laminate stock - Heavy
> Ventliner (factory worked flawless for 50-70 shots but then need replacement, RW's expensivebut improved life, PR's more reasonable/improved life over Savage (100+)&modified breech plug (drill bushing), seems the way to go if you plan on shooting lots (have one on order as we speak)
> Bolt release ( requires the rear action screw to be released to remove, can cause POI shifts. I haven't seen this problem as i torque to the exact same specs each time. Other options are available such as an ez tool rachet or mods)
> Reloading knowledge and equipment required - scale, powder trickler andpowder funnel.
> OOPs forgot with the speeds you can hurl bullets out of the savage one may need to put more consideration intobullet construction,asthey aren't all made for the higherMV's that can be acheived with smokeless.
04-06-2007, 06:02 AM
#26
Typical Buck
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Hickory NC USA
Posts: 964
RE: Smokeless Powder Muzzleloader
I have been shooting a savage since they came out,have had 3 but down to one now,planning on getting one with the thumb hole stock when they come out.I have went through a few scopes with the savage because of shooting some heavy loads in it.I think it was 3 years (maybe 4 ) I put 1500 + sst's and SW through 2 savages,I had gotten 500 seconds at a very good price but had to buy the rest in boxes of 15 and 20's,so the cost wasn't small.
Year before last I set up a spare scope in case something happened to the one on the rifle during the hunting season.This past year went to the range to check the savage out a week before season opened,and the burris signature let me down,had a lepould 4x12 blisti-plexallready set up so I put it on and shot one at 300 yds,had to give it a couple clicks before getting the bullet in the circle(pic below) after that I shot one at 100 yds and it was touching a one inch dot at 9 o'clock.
Went to deer camp the next week shot 3 deer one at 170 yds,one at 200 yds and one at 230 yds.It was up in feb before I got a chance (or took the time to empty it) so I could clean it,shot 3 shots into 1 and 1/4 in at 200 yds.The sec pic is unloading after year before lastdeer season,really got lucky there are 2 bullets through that one hole,cannot tell it by looking at front but can see a ffigure 8 comeing out the other side,and wittnessed by 3 other guys at the range.This was after me taking 4 deer from 50 to 234yds,3 brothers taking deer from 100 to 225 yds and a friend taking one at 100 yds with my rifle,and useing my stand.
I don't know if 1-shot remembers (we posted back and forth on the big greenboard and e-mailtrying to get it to shoot smokless)or not but the first savage I had ML1 would not shoot smokless good enough for me to hunt with at all,think he figured out something was wrong with the barrel,I didn't send it back because it shot clean shot and pyro with xtpsso well.Not joking that thing would drive tacks at 100 yds,I let the fellow shoot it before he bought it and he couldn't believe he had just shot a one hole group at 100 yds with a muzzleloader.
Another 300yd group with the savage
Best target pic with the savage,one at 160 yds one at 200 yds
Year before last I set up a spare scope in case something happened to the one on the rifle during the hunting season.This past year went to the range to check the savage out a week before season opened,and the burris signature let me down,had a lepould 4x12 blisti-plexallready set up so I put it on and shot one at 300 yds,had to give it a couple clicks before getting the bullet in the circle(pic below) after that I shot one at 100 yds and it was touching a one inch dot at 9 o'clock.
Went to deer camp the next week shot 3 deer one at 170 yds,one at 200 yds and one at 230 yds.It was up in feb before I got a chance (or took the time to empty it) so I could clean it,shot 3 shots into 1 and 1/4 in at 200 yds.The sec pic is unloading after year before lastdeer season,really got lucky there are 2 bullets through that one hole,cannot tell it by looking at front but can see a ffigure 8 comeing out the other side,and wittnessed by 3 other guys at the range.This was after me taking 4 deer from 50 to 234yds,3 brothers taking deer from 100 to 225 yds and a friend taking one at 100 yds with my rifle,and useing my stand.
I don't know if 1-shot remembers (we posted back and forth on the big greenboard and e-mailtrying to get it to shoot smokless)or not but the first savage I had ML1 would not shoot smokless good enough for me to hunt with at all,think he figured out something was wrong with the barrel,I didn't send it back because it shot clean shot and pyro with xtpsso well.Not joking that thing would drive tacks at 100 yds,I let the fellow shoot it before he bought it and he couldn't believe he had just shot a one hole group at 100 yds with a muzzleloader.
Another 300yd group with the savage
Best target pic with the savage,one at 160 yds one at 200 yds
04-06-2007, 09:12 AM
#27
Giant Nontypical
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Saskatchewan Canada
Posts: 6,921
RE: Smokeless Powder Muzzleloader
ORIGINAL: gleason.chapman
Excellent post Skeeting_10ML! I havea Savage Syth/SS combo on order, but was not aware of the bolt release issue, can you send me a URL for this? I would also like to know what powder, bulletand powder weight charge your using. Thanks. Chap Gleason
Excellent post Skeeting_10ML! I havea Savage Syth/SS combo on order, but was not aware of the bolt release issue, can you send me a URL for this? I would also like to know what powder, bulletand powder weight charge your using. Thanks. Chap Gleason
Solutions:
1) Ez-Tool RV allows you to remove the breech without releasing the bolt or rear action screw. (cost $40.00)
Link:http://www.modernmuzzleloader.com/website/Pocampo/eztool.html
2) Add 3rd pillar/bed (In essence become the rear action screw via the front trigger screw location.The rear action screw will continuebeing your bolt stopbut will no longereffect mating of the action, etc. (cost subject to gunsmith)
3) Torque to the same specs with inch/lb gunsmith driver. (cost$50) BTW I torque mine to 35 "/lbs front and 25 "/lbs rear.
4) Don't worry about it, just make sure to verify and adjust POI prior to hunt. If smokeless powder is the propellant no worry about leaving it till after season. I left mine from end of Sept till Dec without doing anything but normal weather maint. The last day of the 06' Ml season i took my deer in -20's (celsuis) temperatures and hit him right where I expected too.
As far as loads I found IMR 4759SR to be a great propellant for 250 & 300 class bullets in my rifle(actually it seems to be the case in many 10II's). 42-45grs but I settled on 43.5gr IMR4759, 209W primer &250gr SST with MMP HPH24 sabot, it would shoot sub MOA all day long. I also had 1" groups using same components and VVN110 powder 43-45grs, my best was 43gr where it would consistently print 1" area. 58-60gr of VVN120 showed promise with 300 grain bullets. RL7 was accurate, fastbut dirty, pours poor and recoil is pretty healthy at 70ish gr under 250gr bullet. I plan to play more with 300 class bullets this year and as result will be working with H4198 as well. My hopes is to find a similar shooting load around 2300fps thatI can use for elk rifle season this fall if I don't get during archery.
Here is a link to a goodsource of savage info, check it out
http://dougva.proboards34.com/index.cgi
Hope it helps, enjoy!!!
04-06-2007, 12:39 PM
#28
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location:
Posts: 3,246
RE: Smokeless Powder Muzzleloader
Skeeter_7mm, Thanks for the info on the bolt, I will read up on that and make a choise as to how to handle it. Thanks for the load info also. I plan on using the 300g SW or the Knight Red Hot 300g which are made by Barnes. I am planning on hunting elk in Colorado in 2008 with the gun, already have paid my downpayment and did the preference point deal.
I will print your post to PDF and keep it in my "Savage Folder". Thanks again for your help.
Chap Gleason Va
I will print your post to PDF and keep it in my "Savage Folder". Thanks again for your help.
Chap Gleason Va
04-06-2007, 01:33 PM
#29
Giant Nontypical
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Saskatchewan Canada
Posts: 6,921
RE: Smokeless Powder Muzzleloader
AnytimeI can I am glad to lend a hand.
Since your looking for 08' elk and in the USA may want to think about barnes original 300 gr. .458" xpb bullets, they make a limited once a year run and from what i have heard they are terrific performers in the Savage. Being in Canada it isn't a reality for me to try them so I am stuck with other choices[&:]. BTW their is afella who lives in Ont. Canada and makes a 300gr bullet that also has been getting good reviews, he is a member and posts on Dougs board (check under the trade blanket section).
I shot upmy supply of 300gr SW last year under VVN110, VV120 & IMR 4759. With the same HPH24 sabot they performed well with the later 2 powders. With N110 has been a bear for me about the only way i can get consistent groups with it is 43gr under .451 250 xtp which is not the most effecient at 200 and beyond. Though cost effective. I picked up a pile of 300gr SST at a gun show so I'll see how they fair, I know the 250grshoots lights out in mine and othersI know 10II's.
If your wanting to pretty much shoot 300 class bullets I'd suggest IMR4759SR (for your book powder) and then either (58-63) VVN120 or H4198(64-68). VV is so darn unpredictable with regards to availability in my neck of the woods thus I am going to try the ever stocked Hodgdon powders. I know in my rifle the N120 can be made to achieve my underlying premise so I will be saving the little better then 1/2a canI have for the event I am up against the wall and then have to anty up to have to mail order it for the future.
Since your looking for 08' elk and in the USA may want to think about barnes original 300 gr. .458" xpb bullets, they make a limited once a year run and from what i have heard they are terrific performers in the Savage. Being in Canada it isn't a reality for me to try them so I am stuck with other choices[&:]. BTW their is afella who lives in Ont. Canada and makes a 300gr bullet that also has been getting good reviews, he is a member and posts on Dougs board (check under the trade blanket section).
I shot upmy supply of 300gr SW last year under VVN110, VV120 & IMR 4759. With the same HPH24 sabot they performed well with the later 2 powders. With N110 has been a bear for me about the only way i can get consistent groups with it is 43gr under .451 250 xtp which is not the most effecient at 200 and beyond. Though cost effective
. I picked up a pile of 300gr SST at a gun show so I'll see how they fair, I know the 250grshoots lights out in mine and othersI know 10II's.If your wanting to pretty much shoot 300 class bullets I'd suggest IMR4759SR (for your book powder) and then either (58-63) VVN120 or H4198(64-68). VV is so darn unpredictable with regards to availability in my neck of the woods thus I am going to try the ever stocked Hodgdon powders. I know in my rifle the N120 can be made to achieve my underlying premise so I will be saving the little better then 1/2a canI have for the event I am up against the wall and then have to anty up to have to mail order it for the future.
04-06-2007, 04:50 PM
#30
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location:
Posts: 3,246
RE: Smokeless Powder Muzzleloader
ORIGINAL: skeeter 7MM
AnytimeI can I am glad to lend a hand.
Since your looking for 08' elk and in the USA may want to think about barnes original 300 gr. .458" xpb bullets, they make a limited once a year run and from what i have heard they are terrific performers in the Savage. Being in Canada it isn't a reality for me to try them so I am stuck with other choices[&:]. BTW their is afella who lives in Ont. Canada and makes a 300gr bullet that also has been getting good reviews, he is a member and posts on Dougs board (check under the trade blanket section).
I shot upmy supply of 300gr SW last year under VVN110, VV120 & IMR 4759. With the same HPH24 sabot they performed well with the later 2 powders. With N110 has been a bear for me about the only way i can get consistent groups with it is 43gr under .451 250 xtp which is not the most effecient at 200 and beyond. Though cost effective. I picked up a pile of 300gr SST at a gun show so I'll see how they fair, I know the 250grshoots lights out in mine and othersI know 10II's.
If your wanting to pretty much shoot 300 class bullets I'd suggest IMR4759SR (for your book powder) and then either (58-63) VVN120 or H4198(64-68). VV is so darn unpredictable with regards to availability in my neck of the woods thus I am going to try the ever stocked Hodgdon powders. I know in my rifle the N120 can be made to achieve my underlying premise so I will be saving the little better then 1/2a canI have for the event I am up against the wall and then have to anty up to have to mail order it for the future.
AnytimeI can I am glad to lend a hand.
Since your looking for 08' elk and in the USA may want to think about barnes original 300 gr. .458" xpb bullets, they make a limited once a year run and from what i have heard they are terrific performers in the Savage. Being in Canada it isn't a reality for me to try them so I am stuck with other choices[&:]. BTW their is afella who lives in Ont. Canada and makes a 300gr bullet that also has been getting good reviews, he is a member and posts on Dougs board (check under the trade blanket section).
I shot upmy supply of 300gr SW last year under VVN110, VV120 & IMR 4759. With the same HPH24 sabot they performed well with the later 2 powders. With N110 has been a bear for me about the only way i can get consistent groups with it is 43gr under .451 250 xtp which is not the most effecient at 200 and beyond. Though cost effective
. I picked up a pile of 300gr SST at a gun show so I'll see how they fair, I know the 250grshoots lights out in mine and othersI know 10II's.If your wanting to pretty much shoot 300 class bullets I'd suggest IMR4759SR (for your book powder) and then either (58-63) VVN120 or H4198(64-68). VV is so darn unpredictable with regards to availability in my neck of the woods thus I am going to try the ever stocked Hodgdon powders. I know in my rifle the N120 can be made to achieve my underlying premise so I will be saving the little better then 1/2a canI have for the event I am up against the wall and then have to anty up to have to mail order it for the future.