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Old 04-04-2007, 08:30 AM   #11
 
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Default RE: Smokeless Powder Muzzleloader

I have had my savage 10ML-II for the past couple of years and it is fantastic. It is very accurate and you can work up a load topush as 250 grn bullet2,600-2,900 fps and achieve moa out to 300 yards. Some states do have the use of smokeless during ML season as illegal. Minnesota made it illegal last year, but current legislation going through to make it legal again, as some how the change was snuck through without anyone knowing/stating who or how it got changed.
The following is a great site on the savage 10ML-II and smokeless ML in general, as there are others.

http://dougva.proboards34.com/index.cgi?
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Old 04-04-2007, 08:35 AM   #12
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Default RE: Smokeless Powder Muzzleloader

Cons? 1) To some the need of a powder scale, unless you use 5744 and then you can scoop, BUT I use a scale for my smokers and weigh out every load... so not really a con for me. 2) The vent liners can be a con... they wear, you can get hardened vents or get the plug modified to decrease wear on the vent. 3) The stigma of hunting with a smokeless ML... not a con for me because I could care less about that. 4) The Savage is a heavy ML... 10-11 lbs with scope. Not a problem for those who stand hunt. 5) Plastic stock is flimsy... laminate stock is at least a pound heavier.

Pros? 1) I can see what I shoot immediately... this year I actually saw the hair fly when I shot a buck with the 10ML2 and most important I saw where he dropped when he ran directly away from me where smoke would have obscured it. 2) I have a Max Point Blank Range of 200 yds for a 6 inch Kill Zone. I just point and shoot at anything 200 or under and do not have to worry about compensating. 3) Can be cheaper to shoot then the avg ML. I use 65gn of IMR4198, Harvester black sabot, and 300gn XTP. Cheap to shoot and effective on game. 4) Clean up is a snap. Toughest part is the plug... should drill out the carbon build up on a regular basis. 5) Can go to a blued barrel with greater confidence. You are not using the more corrosive black powder and BP subs. 6) The Accutrigger on the Savage is one of the better if not the best trigger you will find on a stock ML. 7) The action seals out blowback and the bolt holds and extracts the 209 primer better than most any ML on the market. 8) Rifle grade steal is used for the barrel. This is a safe ML. 9) One of the most accurate ML's I have ever owned and that is a stock (no mods) 10ML2 with the tupperware stock... MOA at 100 yds consistently.

I could probably think of more to say but that covers it for now...
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Old 04-04-2007, 08:44 AM   #13
 
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Default RE: Smokeless Powder Muzzleloader

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ORIGINAL: Flatland Hunter

Cons? 1) To some the need of a powder scale, unless you use 5744 and then you can scoop, BUT I use a scale for my smokers and weigh out every load... so not really a con for me. 2) The vent liners can be a con... they wear, you can get hardened vents or get the plug modified to decrease wear on the vent. 3) The stigma of hunting with a smokeless ML... not a con for me because I could care less about that. 4) The Savage is a heavy ML... 10-11 lbs with scope. Not a problem for those who stand hunt. 5) Plastic stock is flimsy... laminate stock is at least a pound heavier.

Pros? 1) I can see what I shoot immediately... this year I actually saw the hair fly when I shot a buck with the 10ML2 and most important I saw where he dropped when he ran directly away from me where smoke would have obscured it. 2) I have a Max Point Blank Range of 200 yds for a 6 inch Kill Zone. I just point and shoot at anything 200 or under and do not have to worry about compensating. 3) Can be cheaper to shoot then the avg ML. I use 60gn of IMR4198, Harvester black sabot, and 300gn XTP. Cheap to shoot and effective on game. 4) Clean up is a snap. Toughest part is the plug... should drill out the carbon build up on a regular basis. 5) Can go to a blued barrel with greater confidence. You are not using the more corrosive black powder and BP subs. 6) The Accutrigger on the Savage is one of the better if not the best trigger you will find on a stock ML. 7) The action seals out blowback and the bolt holds and extracts the 209 primer better than most any ML on the market. 8) Rifle grade steal is used for the barrel. This is a safe ML. 9) One of the most accurate ML's I have ever owned and that is a stock (no mods) 10ML2 with the tupperware stock... MOA at 100 yds consistently.

I could probably think of more to say but that covers it for now...
Good post, as I agree with all you stated. I don't worry too much about the vent liners wearing as I do not religiously shoot like some and currently shooting IMR 4759. I usually get around 50-60 shots from a vent liner before wear becomes an issue. I have dabbled with shooting IMR 4198, in the 63-67 grn range, but did not get the same accuracy as I do with 4759. It did have a nice ole slap on the shoulder though with 67 grns.
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Old 04-04-2007, 10:45 AM   #14
 
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Default RE: Smokeless Powder Muzzleloader

Just got done checking on MN house bill HF 1116 and as of 4/2/07 it is again legal to use smokeless powder during ML season in MN. Take that you sneaky traditional MLer's trying to scam good folk!
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Old 04-04-2007, 10:46 AM   #15
 
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Default RE: Smokeless Powder Muzzleloader

you can still shoot blackpowder/ subs in the savage so its a real high tech muzzleloader that lets you shoot everything from subs to smokeless. Would i use it if i could? No. why? I like the smoke and smell of a muzzleloader.

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Old 04-04-2007, 10:52 AM   #16
 
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Default RE: Smokeless Powder Muzzleloader

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ORIGINAL: frontier gander

you can still shoot blackpowder/ subs in the savage so its a real high tech muzzleloader that lets you shoot everything from subs to smokeless. Would i use it if i could? No. why? I like the smoke and smell of a muzzleloader.
To each their own. I have no problem with others enjoying their own flavor of firearm.
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Old 04-04-2007, 12:05 PM   #17
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Default RE: Smokeless Powder Muzzleloader

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ORIGINAL: younggun243

A friend of mine has one of these, and I was wondering, are these any good over black powder? His is a Savage. I personaly was thinking of getting a black powder muzzleloader, but what are the cons of a smokeless powder muzzleloader?

In the meantime if someone asks me what kind of muzzleloader I would like to get I'll tell them, "T/C Encore .50 cal. Black Powder".
The onlyCON to the Savage 10ML-II, is that you will be treated like the scurge and scumof the earth by the traditional muzzleloader crowd. They are so wrapped around the axle because of the word "smokeless", that they cannot comprehend that the Savage is fully capable of shooting, massive amounts of the real BP and any of the various so-called BP substitutes as well.

When you compare the T/C Encore to the Savage, the Savage will do anything that the T/Cis capable of doingperformance wise, but the T/C is not able and willnever be a matchfor the Savage's performance capabilities.

As far as, smokeless vs real BP, it is no contest, smokeless is the winner hands down, performance wise. It is safer to ship and store, less violatile, produces better performance, less recoil, and produces that better performance at a fraction of the cost.

Forgot something important. In TN the use of smokeless powder in muzzleloader season is perfectly legal.
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Old 04-04-2007, 04:23 PM   #18
 
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Default RE: Smokeless Powder Muzzleloader

I just got my Savage muzzleloader. I can see why people sing it's praises. There really isn't anything odd or mystical about it, other than it's way overbuilt to handle smokeless pressures. You get 150 grain triple 7 pellet load velocities with about half the recoil. That's a big deal for me. The trigger is adjustable-another plus. I don't mind the plastic stock on mine. It's a hunting gun and I won't cry if I put a scratch on it. My only real complaint of the gun is it's overall size. But then again, I'm small person and I don't think it'll bother the average size guy. I have both the Encore and a Savage and I say...get the Savage
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Old 04-04-2007, 05:16 PM   #19
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Default RE: Smokeless Powder Muzzleloader

Younggun243 - your profile says alot about your question. You are a life member in the forums and presumably you like a .243. I notice you've spent time on the gun section and deer hunting. Flat and fast may be where you are and looking for a challenge. Smokeless may well be a great place to start. If it is legal in your state to hunt with and that's important to you, you could get one and try both smokeless and smokeful. Maybe after a few years you'd want another challenge and go to a slow twist roundball gun or a flintlock.

I'm pretty much at the other end of things. I've been living in a "cave" (with a sidelock, oh, and a beautiful wife), depending on woodsmanship and Lady Luck to make it happen; and she has. I've been looking for a different challenge. In my case, seeing just how much performance can be achieved with sidelocks. So far, a fast twist barrel and fiber optic sights have been added, and, so far, I'm impressed and feeling only a little bit guilty.

Maybe one day you and I meet, having found our way to the weapon which most reflects the journey taken. I won't be surprised, if after all the searching and shooting and target punching we hold similar weapons. One with a sliver of stone in its jaws.

Good luck with your quest!
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Old 04-05-2007, 11:24 AM   #20
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Default RE: Smokeless Powder Muzzleloader

Had to edit my post... I put 60gn of 4198 and I am using 65gn. I also put a Sims recoil pad on it... really works.
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