Lock Time...

[sabotloader]

One of the reasons that Idaho is/was dropping the hammer (so-to-speak) on inlines they have been told that inline lock time is far superior to sidelocks.

Definition
Lock-time is the time between the trigger break and primer ignition.

It is my belief that TC has improved lock time on the sidelock to be equal to a lot of plunger type inlines.... The newer TC locks do not have the length of throw that some of the older ones have.

Here is an exploded view of the basic lock...


The part in the lock that I believe makes the difference is the #54 the tumbler... I have replaced one tumbler from a parts order into an older lock and it made a huge difference in the length of throw.

Example, here is a pic of the difference the lock on top is the lock I would call a fast lock while the bottom lock is the typical TC lock - long throw - long lock time....

The top picture shows both guns @ 1/2 cock and the bottom picture shows fully drawn.... There certainly is a difference in length of travel by both hammers... which I think equates to a quicker lock time.

[goatbrother]

That is quite a difference; certainly the shorter throw would have a faster time.

How many times have you heard someone say that a well tuned flinter will have near instantaneous ignition?? I've heard that comment several times in the past few weeks.

To tell you the truth, in my experience I cannot tell the difference in lock time between my side lock guns and my in lines. I've had delay fire with both types due to faulty caps or improper fit of cap on the nipple. Sounds like another lame excuses to me. Even if it were true that there is some significant difference in lock time that alone does not offer any ballistic advantage to the gun. While at the Lewiston F&G open house last week I overheard a guy trying to tell the F&G agent that an inline gun has the same lock time as a center fire gun. So lets look at that, for one the hammer or plunger on an inline set up for percussion capsmust be 10-20 times heavier than the firing pin on a center fire gun, a heavy object is inherently more difficult to put into motion than a lighter object is, simple physics. So unless the spring is extremely powerful there is no way the two guns could be equal in lock time. Now some of the newer closed breech guns set up for 209 primers may have lock times comparable to a center fire because they use a firing pin instead of a plunger. But I need to point out that those guns that use 209 primers are not and have not been legal in Idaho thus making that argument invalid for Idaho.

And what kind of a difference are we talking about anyway, a few nano seconds???

[sabotloader]

goatbrother

Now some of the newer closed breech guns set up for 209 primers may have lock times comparable to a center fire because they use a firing pin instead of a plunger. But I need to point out that those guns that use 209 primers are not and have not been legal in Idaho thus making that argument invalid for Idaho.

I firmly believe exactly what you have stated and in most places in this country the modern gun is legal, so the a lot people writing in from around the country assume that we can shoot that type of rifle. I believe the F&G has gotten a lot of mis-information - just do not know how it is all going to play out....

[cayugad]

One of my Renegades is the same lock you suggest is faster. I personally can not tell the difference as both of them are fast. Besides, I seldom concentrate on the lock, instead working on sight picture. Any action can be "tuned" but there is only so much you can do to make them equal.

Now I have flintlocks that I consider a very fast ignition. Faster then my sidelock ... who knows. But if that is all they are basing their problems with a striker type action on an inline, like a White, Black Diamond, CVA Staghorn, Knight Wolverine, and the list goes on.. they are grabbing for straws as they have no base to their arguement.

[yeoman]

Mike - I don't know that shorter hammer to nipple distance alone necessarily means faster lock time (spring strength, tumbler arc length etc). The whole lock time discussion though sounds like splitting hairs on an issue with far more important inputs. If anything, faster lock time = faster kills, not more kills. Slow lock time= more wounding losses = more total kills; a guy loses an animal and instead of his tag being punched and done, goes out and takes another. The experience and familarity with weapon of the trigger man far outweighs the slight difference in hammer drop time. My opinion.

[roundball]

SL, just an FYI...

The top rifle in eachphoto is actually the older style lock, with the straight up hammer spur;

The new style lock is the bottom rifle in each photo with the curved swept back hammer spur design;

The main spring strength is greater in thenew style locks.

[goatbrother]

Well, for the benefit of those that may be ballistic challenged, I have compiled some ballistic data by way of www.hornady.com and the ballistic calculator they provide.

I've listed ballistics for roundball, conical and sabot projectiles in 45, 50 cal and added comparisons to cartridge guns in 3030, 444 Marlin and 4570 Gvt. Data is listed for drop from a 100 yard zero at 200 and 300 yards and energy at the same distances.

.45 cal RB 200yd 300yd
Drop -25"� -96"� @ 2000fps
Energy 217# 145#

.45 cal
GreatPlains
285 grain
Drop -26"� -87"� @1400 fps
Energy 593# 483#

.50 cal RB
Drop -24.8"� -93"� @2000 fps
Energy 283# 191#

.50 cal
GreatPlains
385 grain
Drop -26.7"� -90.6"� @1400 fps
Energy 772# 624#

.50 cal
GreatPlains
410 grain
Drop -23.9"� -80.3"� @1400 fps
Energy 954# 791#

50cal
W/44cal
240grainXTP
Drop -10"� -37"� @2000fps
Energy 1126# 824#

50cal
W/44cal
300grXTP
Drop -10.6"� -38"� @2000fps
Energy 1398# 1012#

30-30
170 grain
Drop -9.4"� -35.7"� @2200 fps
Energy 793# 530#

444Marlin
265grain
flatpoint
Drop -8.2"� -31.3"� @2325fps
Energy 1400# 921#

4570Gvt
300gr
HP
Drop -10.4"� -38.6"� @2100fps
Energy 1313# 901#

As shown the round ball and conical have very close trajectories. The sabot/pistol bullet loads and older cartridge calibers listed are likewise very similar in trajectory. The program would not give me data for 3006 with a 100 yard zero so I am not showing data for that round.

[sabotloader]

roundball

Thanks for the info - I have actually switched several hammers because i prefer the straight up spur + all the springs have been replaced with the stronger spring - well TC tells me they are stonger... and I have replaced the tumbler with the newer versions...

[roundball]

Sorry...assumed since you were demoing old & newrelated to lock time that the rifleswere in their original configurations...I also likethe old style hammer andconverted any new styles that I ended up with when I used caplocks a lot

[dmurphy317]

For your 30-06 comparison using a 180 bullet at 2730MV it drops about 4" at 200 and about 15" at 300 with a 100 yard zero. I don't think too many Muzzleloaders are going to match that.