Zugunruhe has asked me a couple of time to show pics of my Apex stock. If you notice where the rod spring is located, I removed this spring and fitted a wooden dam in that location. It was treated with paraffin for a release agent. I then filled each side with a mixture of JB Weld and lead shot. I did the first two at once, then followed with the last two each done separately. Behind the breech lug I just filled the compartments which were already there.
From the photo you will also notice that on either side of the shims there is a little wall of epoxy. This was from bedding the lugs where I used WAY more than was needed. I sanded with 400 grit so that the lugs could easily go in and out. The shims are coffe can lids. I know this isn't all that stout but they actually don't support anything. Any lifting forces on the barrel fromrecoilare transferred to the stock via the lug screws. I do not tighten the lug screws enough to deform the shims.Even so, I'm partial to the way SHillsbuilt the shims forhis laminate Omega stock and since I have a couple of hinges laying around, I will fashion some later.
I mentioned this earlier but it turned out that there was very little space between the bottom of the lugs and the stock. I don't think bedding the lugs is necessary or added much, if anything. One could just shim if he wants to float the barrel.
One should notice thatthe lugs are primarily supported by a 1/8" or perhaps a hair more strip on each side. The spillover from bedding the lugs show this clearly. It is supported on the bottom by about 1/4 ". The supports for the Muzzle lug, after reinforcement, is a little longer than 3 1/8" while for the Breech lug its a little longer than 3/4". I don't think I canmake this stock fail by shootingit. I shoot alot, and they are mostly heavy conicals so we shall see how it holds up.
Since reading this post and the other posts about stocks cracking,I decided to take my camo stock off my Apex and examine it closely. To my dismay I see I am getting hairline cracks. Goth of them are in the bottom of the U trough where the ramrod slides down. One is next to the front lug and the other is in the rear next to where the trigger assembly goes through. I am going to call Winchester right now and see what there reply is. I will keep you posted.
Art
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"Just because you're paranoid it doesn't mean everyone is not out to get you"
I just got off the phone with an Eric at Winchester Muzzleloading. I don't know for sure but I am guessing this is the same Eric MO Archer talked to concerning his Kodiak.
He told me this is only the second time he has heard of this happening. (That itself really makes me wonder.) I was directed to send them the stock (at my expense) and I would be receiving a new one in about 4 weeks.
I have to say I am not very happy with this response, especially if this is the same Eric who sent MO Archer a new stock and gave him a prepaid label to send the old one back. Does anyone have any experience withcustomer service at Winchester Muzzleloading? Isthere perhaps someone else I could speak to there who would give me a satisfactory response?
Any help would be appreciated,
Thank you,
Art
PS I know I could do things to try and reinforce the stock myself but I don't feel I should have to and I would be afraid of voiding my warranty completely.
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"Just because you're paranoid it doesn't mean everyone is not out to get you"
I just got off the phone with an Eric at Winchester Muzzleloading. I don't know for sure but I am guessing this is the same Eric MO Archer talked to concerning his Kodiak.
He told me this is only the second time he has heard of this happening. (That itself really makes me wonder.) I was directed to send them the stock (at my expense) and I would be receiving a new one in about 4 weeks.
I have to say I am not very happy with this response, especially if this is the same Eric who sent MO Archer a new stock and gave him a prepaid label to send the old one back. Does anyone have any experience withcustomer service at Winchester Muzzleloading? Isthere perhaps someone else I could speak to there who would give me a satisfactory response?
Any help would be appreciated,
Thank you,
Art
PS I know I could do things to try and reinforce the stock myself but I don't feel I should have to and I would be afraid of voiding my warranty completely.
Here's what I recommend. Forget about sending it back, it won't be worth it. The bottom of the U cracks on ALL of them, IMO. Now that Mo Archer has brought them to our attention, we are all looking, and we are all finding them right there for the very reasons, I think, I previously mentioned in MO Archers post. I think the U's, as you call them, are like tits on a boar hog. They don't serve any purpose to strengthen the stock. IMO, your Apex and Mo Archers Kodiak ( I own both), have a stock which is better designed better to receive recoil than any other drop breech rifle.
Obviously, "Eric" is more than happy to replace it if you wanthim too. But just like T/C, he going to require you to send it back at your expense. Were I you, I wouldn't modify the stock. If the stock fails, like sabotloader's Omega stock where the lug support breaks from the stock, or if this kind of failureappears to beimminent, (which I suspect it won't), then return the stock for a replacement. My reinforment of the stock spawns from intention to shoot very high recoil loads with very heavy conicals. I don't want to send it off and I don't think I will ever have to.
Phil, thanks for posting the pictures. I had a vision in my head of where you were filling the compartments and how and seeing confirms my thoughts. A question on your choice of fillers though, did you add lead shot to the mix to adjust your balance point, or does it have some structural reason to it?
All of this talk about Kodiak stocks cracking means I'll have to pull mine apart and look at it tonight. I haven't been able to shoot now for two weeks, so I still don't have that many rounds through it. Sounds like I can pretty much expect to find at least hairlines though. I'm shocked to hear that Eric at BPI has handled two identical situations in much different manners, not good...
Phil, thanks for posting the pictures. I had a vision in my head of where you were filling the compartments and how and seeing confirms my thoughts. A question on your choice of fillers though, did you add lead shot to the mix to adjust your balance point, or does it have some structural reason to it?
Zugunruhe,
I was just adding weight. I will eventually move the balance right in front of the triggerguard by using a composite of the lead and expoxy in the butt of the stock. My goal is to get the weight of the rifle to around 10 lbs with the scope. This will make the recoil which bruised me with the NEF sidekick,much morebearable with the Apex and Kodiak PRO. I will basically be shooting a Black Powder Cartridge Rifle, I want the weight to be like a Black Powder Cartridge Rifle. The design of the stocks, especially the Kodiak Pro's stock, make what I want to do very easy.
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All of this talk about Kodiak stocks cracking means I'll have to pull mine apart and look at it tonight. I haven't been able to shoot now for two weeks, so I still don't have that many rounds through it. Sounds like I can pretty much expect to find at least hairlines though. I'm shocked to hear that Eric at BPI has handled two identical situations in much different manners, not good...
Eric, I am sure, broke the rules by shipping the stock to Mo Archer and a return label. Why he broke the rules, I can not say, perhaps Mo Archer was alittle more friendly on the phone. Perhaps flounder33 referenced the forum in a threatening way and Eric didn't want to be asked every time to do what he did for Mo Archer. I can't explain it, but as long as CVA/BPI plays by the rules and replaces anything that breaks on my rifles, I will we very happy.
In spite of the cracks, I personally wouldn't trade the design for one like the Omega. For example, if CVA made a hollow stock with some shallow pockets to recieve recoil (which would be guaranteed not to develop cracks in U'sit simply doesn't have), I would not make the trade, just wouldn't do it. I like the design of the Apex/Kodiak stockbetter and I think that design better serves my needs.
Mr. Plasgow, I would like to inform you that my conversation with Eric was both friendly and professional. Your insinuation that it was otherwise is very much unappreciated. No reference to this or any other forum was made as I don't think it would be appropriate to do so.
I ask you though, do you really expect me to believe that this is only the second time he has ever heard of a stock cracking? I can tell you that I expect people I deal with to be honest and forthright with me in any dealing or conversation (including interneat forums).
Art
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"Just because you're paranoid it doesn't mean everyone is not out to get you"
Thats what I thought Phil. The interior of the Kodiak/Apex stocks really lends itself to this kind of modification and reinforcement. I think I'll proceed with reinforcing mine in the same fashion. Tell me more about the "wooden dam" you used to replace the ramrod spring. Is is justa round topped ramp of sorts?
Mr. Plasgow, I would like to inform you that my conversation with Eric was both friendly and professional. Your insinuation that it was otherwise is very much unappreciated. No reference to this or any other forum was made as I don't think it would be appropriate to do so.
I ask you though, do you really expect me to believe that this is only the second time he has ever heard of a stock cracking?
This is a good question because I can't hardly believe it either. I consider this feature of their stocks "par for the course". I don't like it. But in all my time here, I have never heard of Apex or Kodiak stocks cracking. Mo Archers original post, which arose from my request for a Kodiak or Apex owner to post a pic of the stock, was the first I had ever heard of it. I figure the cracks are there in everyone's stock and most, if not all, have been oblivious to them.
According to Mo Archer, Eric didn't offer to send the stock in advance of the return, Mo Archer requested it. Like I said, I can't explain why Eric didn't agree to do the same for you, but I can say this. If I were Eric, and I got a call where the same request was asked and I was asked whyhe couldn't get the same treatment as as another, I would begin to rethink making decisions which are not part of the companies policy. He is not required to send out a stock and a shipping label, its not the customary practice of any company.
As far as your approach, I didn't insinuate anything. I suggested conditions underwhich Eric would refuse to service youin the same way he serviced Mo Archer. There is a reason you got different service and I don't know what it is. Why don't you ask Eric for an explanation and then report it here?
Apex Stock Reinforcement
