cayugad

Do to some recent questions on patch lube, it was reported that Permatex Hand Cleaner made a fine patch lube for shooting roundball. Always ready to try anything different, and also having excellent advise from Triple Se7en in the past,I purchased some and ran Permatex in a head to head shoot out with my homemade moose milk.

The rifle used was a T/C Renegade with a .58 caliber Green Mountain Barrel with a 1-70 twist. I was shooting 100 grains of Goex 2f black powder. The cap was a RWS 1075 #11 cap. The ball was Speer .570 diameter. And the distance was 50 yards off a single Caldwell bag Rest. It was 84 degrees, sunny, no wind and HOT. The barrel got to a point where it could not be touched hardly, but I kept right on shooting.

I want to state first, the difference is group size could be attributed to a number of things. Remember, this rifle is sighted in with moosemilk patched, pillow tick. Permatex is something totally new to the rifle. The rifle is also sighted in with the 100 grains of Goex 2f. Perhaps the Permatex needs a different powder charge. The overall results were quite interesting and more testing will be done.

The first five shots, group with the permatex hand cleaner was 3.25 inches total. The patch material was smeared with a good supply of the hand cream and then worked into the material. After the material was saturated, the ball was loaded and fired. No swabbing of the barrel was done the entire day, no matter what I was shooting.

The next five shot group was done with moosemilk and measured an even two inches.

I then shot a three shot group with the permatex using a different aim point and fired a 2.75 inch group. I was a little more pleased with that then the first group.

My three shot group with the moosemilk measured 1.25 inches. I was actually shocked to see a group that tight. All three balls were almost a clover leaf. Remember a .58 caliber ball measures .570 in diameter alone.

I then shot a two shot group with the permatex and a different aiming point easier to see and shot a 1.5 group. With moose milk and the same aiming point, we scored .75 of an inch. I touched two of them up again.

Then with the easy to see aiming point ( a white piece of papers, taped to the target showed up excellent) I was able to shoot a 1.5 inch seven shot group with the moosemilk patches.

After shooting near some 30 rounds of ball.. that barrel was so hot you could hardly handle the rifle. I decided to call it a day and wait for a cooler day to try all of this again.

So, without question,the moosemilk out shot the Permatex on all accounts, this could be again attributed to simply not having the right load for Permatex, the right amount of lube on the patch, the heat, or any number of reasons. Also the rifle was set up for the moosemilk patch. And it was dead accurate...

Some observations on the ability of the lubes to protect the patch did concern me. The Permatex patch had holes in them. They were not blown apart mind you, but there were holes in the main body of the patch. The moosemilk patch was perfect condition, other then fowled. All patches were cut at the muzzle. Both lubes loaded beautiful.

So, before the next shooting match.. when using the Permatex, do you saturate the patch heavy with the lube or just enough to meet the material? Do you use a wad under the Permatex patch at all to help protect the material from being blown out? Any other hints to gain the best accuracy from the Permatex?

One other observation, this is the first time in years after shooting all afternoon, my hands were clean.

Hunter John

Cayugad – Excellent range report as usual. Funny how both groups seemed to shrink as the day wore on and your ML became more dirty. Wow, a 1 ½ inch group at 50 yards, that .58 is a real tack driver.

I take it both lubes provided the same ease (or difficulty) in loading. Correct? Were the Moose Milk patches pre-lubed or did you spray them on the range. Just wondering if the accuracy difference could be explained by a “dry lube vs wet lube” thing…

I seem to recall Triple Se7en applying the Permetex to the patches and then storing them in a Skoal can, but I could be wrong here. Perhaps a drier lubed patch would shoot better on hot days. Then again, when it’s +80 degrees, I don’t think any lube is completely dry.[&:]

Thanks again for your informative posts.

BS

That is quite interesting on how both groups get smaller. Nice shooting!

Triple Se7en

Lets go over this again Dave.....

We use the same Renegade
We use the same Renegade barrel manufacturer
We use the same caliber
We use the same twist
We use the same roundball manufacturer.

I use a plain, smooth .015 cotton patch that's very lightly covered with Permatex. I was swabbing after every three shots.No wad involved. I also used 70 gr. 777 FFF. I'm on the verge of switching to real black (either Schuetzen or Swiss) -- won't know which one I like best until prior to hunting season in November. The reason it will take so long is because I want (1) powder for all my MLs.

If I were you, I would end that testing& stick to moosemilk. You have a winner there (1.50" group) ... you can always use that Permatex around the house/garage for cleaning after tools work.

My groups were never that tight - simply because my way of sighting-in is Pickup - aim - elbow-down on the table & rifle barrel atop a sandbag method.Because of that, 2-3" groups are about the best I see with any centerfire or ML.

When I do changeover to blackpowder, I will start with the Permatex patch, but what my Renegade prefers by then is yet-to-be determined. You can retry that test after storing some Permatex patches & letting them dry-out for a month or-so in a Skoal can. Go light with the Permatex... just get the patch covered lightly - no excess.

cayugad

I will try that with the can storage thingTriple Se7en. Perhaps they were lubed too much. I did put the hand cleaner on kind of heavy.

I know why the groups got better. There were less rounds being fired to make the measuredgroups, andwhen I first started, I was having trouble picking up my POI. I was using the Remington targets. That large green circle is all fine and good, but that off white center I could not see. I finally put a piece of bright yellow tape in the center. When I added some colored tape that I could then use as a standard reference point, it made all the difference in the world.

I use a full open 6 o'clock hold, placing the bull or tape on top of the front site. When I had an off color that I could actually distinguish, the hold became much easier. I will lube some strips up and then store them in a plastic zip lock bag. The moose milk patches I was using today were wet with no prior lube on them. In fact I swear I heard one sizzle when I set it on that hot muzzle barrel. But I think I must have been hearing things as that could not happen in most likely hood.

70 grains of powder??? I never shot a load that light as I remember. I do want to try some KIK 3f out of the rifle. Maybe next time.

Triple Se7en

I forgot to mention that we also share the same 1075 caps. I'm sure it doesn't surprise you that 70 gr. 777 gets it done out to 125 yards. Don't you use the same powder charge with your 460s in your White or T/C?

cayugad

Yes, I shoot 70 grains of Triple Se7en 3f in the White and T-7 2f in the Black Diamond XR when shooting the big conicals...

For some reason, 100-110 grains of Goex with them big roundball really are accurate. And they sure ring the steel trap down range.

lemoyne

cayugad, first off if you like something like a snuff can to keep patches in and don't chew you might try those plastic cans very similar to a snuff can that you can get beef jerky in, I would rather chew that anyway. LOL
My 58 is a hopkins and Allen under hammer with a 1-70 twist 30 inch Green Moutain barrel; since I believe you are shooting with open iron and I have a scope on mine it is not a fair comparison but I can normally keep a 2.5 inch group at 100 off the bench. I use 1 cup water soluable oil 1 table spoon citrus soap 2 qt water when I lived in norther IL I used to add a cup of 90% alk in the winter. Have fun ,its been over a 100 every day here for a while. Lee

quigleysharps4570

I've always had good luck with that particular handcleaner as a patch lube. Works in the new .54 real good too. When shooting it I've been putting alot of it on the patch and cutting at the muzzle. The patches could be used again.

cayugad

My first worry wasalso, I was using too much of the lube. I would saturate the pillow tick until you could actually see the material absorb the lube. Perhaps that was too much. I am not sure. I also was cutting the patch at the muzzle. I have not used a store bought patch in many years now. Next time out I want to try some cornmeal as a wad, and also try reducing the load just to see what happens. I always have my moosemilk to fall back on should these other changes not improve the groups.