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Old 07-12-2005, 11:37 AM   #1
 
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Default About Smokeless Muzzleloading

[blockquote]
What EVERYONE Needs to Know About Smokeless Muzzleloading

There has been an unprecedented amount of supposition and speculation surrounding smokeless muzzleloading, though it has been a well-proven system for nearly a decade by now-- far more time-tested and game-tested then the use of sulfurless synthetic propellants such as Triple 7 that remain corrosive, and obscure visibility. It is time to put these rumors to rest, based on empirical evidence alone-- not preexisting attitudes or lack of understanding. In this brief article, I believe I'll attempt to do just that.

I. SMOKELESS MEANS HIGH VELOCITY
No. This is easily disproved. Smokeless no more means "high velocity" than a 12 ga. shotgun means high velocity, or a .22 rimfire. In fact, those who think still that muzzle velocity alone is the component that defines smokeless can take a look at Knight Rifles and Thompson Center Arms catalogues and owners manuals. Both have published factory loads that well exceed those published by Savage Arms.

II. SMOKELESS MEANS HIGH PRESSURE
This again is clearly wrong. Today's 2000 fps shotshell whitetail loads do not exceed 12,000 PSI MAP: that is the SAAMI limit. They do use smokeless powder, of course. Three pellet loads with a 250 gr. bullet have been proved to exceed 25,000 PSI by Lyman Ballistic Labs and other independent sources. 50 grains of Vihtavouri N120 gets a 250 gr. Barnes MZ-Expander out the muzzle of a Savage 10ML-II at around 1960 fps. MAP= Approx. 18,832 PSI.

III. SMOKELESS MEANS SIGNIFICANTLY GREATER RANGE
No, this is hardly the case. No .45 caliber bullet can fly very flat. We are shooting the same saboted bullets, at similar velocities to any other inline muzzleloader. None compare with the flight characteristics of a 7mm class cartridge, or a .30 caliber projectile. They never will due to the "load from the muzzle" sabot limitations.

IV. SMOKELESS MEANS LESS RECOIL
True! Powder weight is a component of recoil, and we can get similar performance by using half as much powder. Less abuse to your scope, your shoulder, and it is every bit as lethal. That makes the Savage 10ML-II the top choice for recoil sensitive, older, or smaller. There is no glory in self-abuse. A dedicated article on this website discusses this in detail.

V. ONLY SMOKELESS IS LOADED IN MODERN CARTRIDGES
This is obviously incorrect. Triple Se7en, marketed by Hodgdon Powder as a "blackpowder substitute" has PUBLISHED load data by Hodgdon Powder for use in "223 REM 25 ACP 7MM TCU 7MM BR REM 7MM-08 REM 30-30 WIN 308 WIN 32 ACP 32 S&W LONG 32 H&R MAG 32-20 WIN 380 AUTO 9MM LUGER 38 SUPER AUTO 38 SPECIAL 38 SPECIAL +P 357 SIG 357 MAGNUM 357 REM MAX 35 REM 9X18 MAKAROV 375 JDJ 38-40 WIN 40 S&W 10MM AUTO 41 REM MAG 44 RUSSIAN 44 COLT 44 S&W SPECIAL 44-40 WIN 44 REM MAG 44 AUTO MAG 45 GLOCK AUTO 45 ACP 45 COLT 45 COLT (Ruger, Freedom Arms & TC Only) 45 WIN MAG 454 CASULL 460 ROWLAND 475 LINEBAUGH 480 RUGER 50 AE 500 LINEBAUGH 500 S & W MAGNUM" all from Hodgdon Powder.

Triple Se7en was not sold before 2002; to say it is not an ultra modern high-energy propellant is taking severe liberties with the truth. It can hardly be considered "just a blackpowder substitute," when it is recommended and sold for use in cartridges and firearms specifically designed for smokeless powder only. Triple Se7en is also CLEARLY a smokeless powder substitute in most of the above applications. How could anyone miss this?

VI. SMOKELESS MEANS LESS OPERATING COST
It sure does, astonishing so. This is also defined in detail in a dedicated article. You are using expensive, "fake blackpowder" propellants that can cost $25 a pound, and you are using a lot MORE of it by weight.

VII. SMOKELESS IS A SAFER WAY TO MUZZLELOAD
It certainly is: the U.S. Military and Department of Transportation have long proved that smokeless powder is safer to handle, use, and store than blackpowder and easily ignitable so-called substitutes. The 100% barrel proofing of the Savage 10ML-II proves it is manufactured to a higher standard, see the dedicated article on proofing on this site for further information. Additionally, the Accu-Trigger is obviously the safest trigger ever to be placed on a muzzleloader.

VIII. SMOKELESS MUZZLELOADERS LAST LONGER THAN OTHER MUZZLELOADERS
There is no disputing that-with the removal of caustic, corrosive propellants, your gun simply is not being constantly attacked by them. A Savage 10ML-II is a lifetime gun and will not rot itself to pieces.

IX. SMOKELESS MUZZLELOADERS ARE MORE ACCURATE THAN REGULAR MUZZLELOADERS
Generally, they clearly are. The lack of heavy fouling and caking residue from shot-to-shot means a more a consistent bore condition from shot to shot, and consistency and accuracy are one and the same.

X. SMOKELESS MUZZLELOADING IS A QUICKER, MORE HUMANE WAY TO HARVEST GAME
It sure is, by design. The Savage has a 1:24 twist barrel that can stabilize and accurately shoot 300 grain projectiles where other muzzleloaders cannot-it was designed around a 300 grain bullet. That means more terminal energy, greater wounding, more shock-down power, more striking energy, and a more humane harvest. The lack of noxious smoke obscuring the hunter's vision means more quickly recovered game, and less lost game.

Muzzleloading legend, Gary B. "Doc" White, poses this question in his book:
"Why would any intelligent man stoop to using a gun that is slow to load, has a trajectory like a rainbow, requires constant management, is dirty, smelly and otherwise loathsome to use?"
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© 2005 by Randy Wakeman
[/blockquote]
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Old 07-12-2005, 12:05 PM   #2
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Default RE: About Smokeless Muzzleloading

Nice, now we can get spammed on forums with propaganda for somebody elses gain. Wow, wasn't this a nice page when it was regular guys just talking ML and thier experiences..
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Old 07-12-2005, 12:30 PM   #3
 
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Default RE: About Smokeless Muzzleloading

Let's see,

I. SMOKELESS MEANSHIGH VELOCITY
II. SMOKELESS MEANS HIGH PRESSURE
III. SMOKELESS MEANS SIGNIFICANTLY GREATER RANGE
IV. SMOKELESS MEANS LESS RECOIL
V. ONLY SMOKELESS IS LOADED IN MODERN CARTRIDGES
VI. SMOKELESS MEANS LESS OPERATING COST
VII. SMOKELESS IS A SAFER WAY TO MUZZLELOAD
VIII. SMOKELESS MUZZLELOADERS LAST LONGER THAN OTHER MUZZLELOADERS
IX. SMOKELESS MUZZLELOADERS ARE MORE ACCURATE THAN REGULAR MUZZLELOADERS
X. SMOKELESS MUZZLELOADING IS A QUICKER, MORE HUMANE WAY TO HARVEST GAME

Hope you don't twist your elbow patting yourself on the back so hard. If "smokeless" is so perfect (and Savage along with ya) then why not just go buy a bolt action .270 and be done with it?

I personally wouldn't mind talking about the benefits and issues that come w/ the Savage rifles, and shooting smokeless, if you weren't so flippin holier than thou. Lots of people LIKE the smoke and soot, some of the people on this site consider themselves MANLY and don't have a problem with the recoil, many of us are quite proud of our marksmanship and do not consider cost as one of the factors driving our shooting decisions (by the way, the extra two or three hundred bucks a Savage costs would buy a whole lot of bullets and powder), and lastly, but certainly not least, to "kinda"question folks hunting ethics by implying that if you hunt w/ your gun a person is more ethical than a person shooting a flintlock is total rubbish.

Thanks so much for informing me on all these issues- not.
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Old 07-12-2005, 01:26 PM   #4
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Default RE: About Smokeless Muzzleloading

Let's see,

I. SMOKELESS MEANSHIGH VELOCITY
II. SMOKELESS MEANS HIGH PRESSURE
III. SMOKELESS MEANS SIGNIFICANTLY GREATER RANGE
IV. SMOKELESS MEANS LESS RECOIL
V. ONLY SMOKELESS IS LOADED IN MODERN CARTRIDGES
VI. SMOKELESS MEANS LESS OPERATING COST
VII. SMOKELESS IS A SAFER WAY TO MUZZLELOAD
VIII. SMOKELESS MUZZLELOADERS LAST LONGER THAN OTHER MUZZLELOADERS
IX. SMOKELESS MUZZLELOADERS ARE MORE ACCURATE THAN REGULAR MUZZLELOADERS
X. SMOKELESS MUZZLELOADING IS A QUICKER, MORE HUMANE WAY TO HARVEST GAME




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Old 07-12-2005, 03:08 PM   #5
 
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Default RE: About Smokeless Muzzleloading

Ill stay with my smokepole.
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Old 07-12-2005, 03:30 PM   #6
 
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Default RE: About Smokeless Muzzleloading

Wow! Apparently not a lot of fans of smokeless muzzleloading here, at least so far! I for one believe the Savage 10ML-II is an awesome muzzleloader and am all for the use of it if you are interested in cutting edge technology in muzzleloading. BUT, I wouldn't get rid of my smokepoles either, as they are a lot of fun to shoot also. Smokeless is just another option in this great sport of muzzleloading! It's a shame to see hunters vs. hunters just because of the weapon they choose touse!
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Old 07-12-2005, 03:45 PM   #7
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Default RE: About Smokeless Muzzleloading

We may as well learn to live with the fact that Smokeless Muzzle-loaders are here to stay. Technology is on the move. Some people are never happy unless they have something bigger and better (in their opinion) then the next guy. The State you hunt in will determine if this rifle shooting smokeless powder will be allowed to be used in their muzzle-loading season. Just as Traditional Black Powder shooters take offence at the modern in-line muzzle-loading shooters, some in-line shooters take offence of the smokeless muzzle-loader.

My view on this is, a propellant is put down the bore of a rifle. A similar projectile is them seated onto the powder charge. An independent ignition system is used to set the powder charge off. Same as every other muzzle-loader out there. There are Omega, Knight Disc, and many other rifles andshooters that use three pellets that can get some of the same speeds as the smokeless. So I guess the whole thing objected to is smokeless powder. I just look at it as another form of a muzzle-loader because of the propellant.

I have no desire to own a Savage because I have no desire to shoot smokeless powder.If they wanted to give me one, I would be more then glad to take it because it is my understanding they shoot black powder, Pyrodex, APP, and triple se7en powder equally well. Correct me if I am wrong on this point.

Quote:
Muzzleloading legend, Gary B. "Doc" White, poses this question in his book:
"Why would any intelligent man stoop to using a gun that is slow to load, has a trajectory like a rainbow, requires constant management, is dirty, smelly and otherwise loathsome to use?"
That's easy Doc.. I get a big kick out of being different and I like the dirt and stink... what can I say.

I wonder about the actual basis of this quote. I would venture to guess that Doc White was making a point of describingthe enjoyment we black powder shooter have, shooting a black powder rifle. I do not think he was advocating the use of smokeless powder muzzleloaders, although I admit I have not read his book. It would be interesting to see if this quote was perhaps taken out of contex for the use of something else.

The Savage Smokeless Powder rifle in my opinion is nothing to get concerned about. If people want to own and hunt with one, fine... their money. I personally will stick with my Goex burning, rotten smelling, fowling, smoke belching, rainbow arching rifle I have now and not worry about someone else.
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Old 07-12-2005, 04:21 PM   #8
 
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Default RE: About Smokeless Muzzleloading

"SMOKELESS MEANS HIGH PRESSURE. This is clearly wrong."

If smokeless doesn't mean high pressure, then why can't we safely shootit in any muzzleloader? Why is the Savage ML-II the only MZ rifle that is safe to use smokeless powder?
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Old 07-12-2005, 04:35 PM   #9
 
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Default RE: About Smokeless Muzzleloading

Before I start the rant - let it be know that I am a muzzleloading hunter with the latest and greatest firearms, gadgets, gimmicks, and projectiles....

The only sure thing about the current trend in muzzleloader manufacturing (scopes, inline, 209, smokeless..whatever) is that moremanufactures strive to duplicate the qualities and convienience of a typical centerfire fire, the more likely that legislators will re-evaluate the terms "primative" and "blackpowder". These are key terms -especially when determining thelength of special seasons, & eligible game management zones unique to muzzleloading. Eventually these same legislators may dictate that they are only used in a general rifle season. At that point, your scoped modern muzzleloader w/209 ign, saboted boat tails propelled by a 50 gr charge of the mighty "V"will be nothing more than a really expensive & slow reloading single shot.
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Old 07-12-2005, 07:58 PM   #10
 
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Default RE: About Smokeless Muzzleloading

Good point.
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