.44 mag for bear.
03-02-2002, 05:48 AM
#11
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Grove City PA USA
Posts: 132
RE: .44 mag for bear.
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the 30-30 winchester being better for black bears than the 44 mag was a joke right? If not is sounds like it is. I would take it over the 30-30 any day of the week and twice on sundays
brian
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I agree with Brian. The 30-30 will have a little higher velocity and energy, but the heavier .44 bullet will probably penetrate better and will leave a better wound channel.
the 30-30 winchester being better for black bears than the 44 mag was a joke right? If not is sounds like it is. I would take it over the 30-30 any day of the week and twice on sundays
brian
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2 id=quote>
I agree with Brian. The 30-30 will have a little higher velocity and energy, but the heavier .44 bullet will probably penetrate better and will leave a better wound channel.
03-04-2002, 02:54 PM
#12
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Los Angeles CA USA
Posts: 192
RE: .44 mag for bear.
445 Supermag,,,,Critter Gitter,,,,,Okay, no that statement wasn't a joke. But don't take my word for it. You guys don't know me. But, you can take Craig Boddington's word for it. I'll refer back to his book in more detail on what his professional opinion is. He says the following on page 149:
<font color=red>"...240-grain pistol load...produces about 1,760 fps in a 20-inch (rifle) carbine.</font id=red> (He's refering to energy at the muzzle!). <font color=red>Muzzle energy is about 1,650 foot/pounds, but due to the terrible sectional density of pistol bullets, velocity and energy drop very quickly. In rifles, you can play with heavier bullets and you can get a bit more velocity- but there's darn near nothing you can do to get a .44 mag to deliver 1,000 foot/pounds beyond 100 yards."
"At best, the, this is a very short-range cartridge-short for rifles and evern shorter in handguns...with hard-cast or soft point bullets...the .44mag is an adequate deer cartridge to 100 yards...at very short range can do the job on black bear and wild boar..."</font id=red>
He goes on to say: <font color=red>"...Handloading is essential to get any range out of the .44 mag, and equally essential if the cartridge is to be used on game larger than deer or smallish black bears."</font id=red>
This statement alone points me back to the original question by Normercy that a .44mag used as a "charge stopping knock 'em dead gun" isn't really such a great gun for that particular purpose. Especially if the bear is say over 200lbs!
He goes on to say: <font color=red>"...you can even get the .44 barely up into elk country, at very short range. But it's no dragonslayer, and must never be considered such. It is a very fine little cartridge-but even at its very best, it is not the equal of the .30-30 Winchester. Users of it, whether in rifle or pistol, simply must keep that in mind."</font id=red>
This is what he says about the .30-30 on pages 102-105:
<font color=red>"...170-grain bullet delivering 2,200 fps and 1,827 foot/pounds...energy figures fall below 1,000 foot/pounds before you reach 200 yards..."</font id=red>
That point alone is better than a .44mag which falls under 1000 ft/lbs under 100 yards! He compares the .44mag at 100 yards with the .30-30 at a 100 yards by saying:
<font color=red>Within 100 yards-the distance most game is taken with this caliber</font id=red> (30-30) <font color=red> it will offer up to 1,500 foot/pounds of energy, which is more than enough.</font id=red>
I must add that his opinion is that any cartridge used for big game must have a minimum of 1000 foot pounds of energy at 100 yards to cleanly kill the game. Obviously the 30-30 beats the .44mag in this spectrum.
He adds on page 104: <font color=red>"...The very nature of the .30-30 bullet is also important...only extremely blunt round-nose bullets or, better, flat-points, are suitable...but I think it's a partial explanation of why the .30-30 seems to hit very hard on game despite unimpressive energy and velocity."</font id=red>
He does say, <font color=red>"It's also a bit underpowered for the LARGEST of black bears..."</font id=red>
He does explain that the .30-30 has a slight advantange over the .44mag due to velocity and almost double the ft/lbs of energy at over 100 yards when compared to a .44mag.
I think Boddington knows what he's talking about.
ths 78....Without going into another long chapter,,,I think a 30-06 blows any .44mag out of the water PERIOD. I'll take a handloaded 220grain 30-06 bullet or even a 180grain Swift A-frame or Nosler partition over any of the best .44mag bullets bar-none! No comparison between the two when it comes to energy, velocity, penetration, hydrostatic shock capabilities and documented incidents on large and/or dangerous game and all around performance etc...
Edited by - Hk45USP on 03/04/2002 16:03:12
<font color=red>"...240-grain pistol load...produces about 1,760 fps in a 20-inch (rifle) carbine.</font id=red> (He's refering to energy at the muzzle!). <font color=red>Muzzle energy is about 1,650 foot/pounds, but due to the terrible sectional density of pistol bullets, velocity and energy drop very quickly. In rifles, you can play with heavier bullets and you can get a bit more velocity- but there's darn near nothing you can do to get a .44 mag to deliver 1,000 foot/pounds beyond 100 yards."
"At best, the, this is a very short-range cartridge-short for rifles and evern shorter in handguns...with hard-cast or soft point bullets...the .44mag is an adequate deer cartridge to 100 yards...at very short range can do the job on black bear and wild boar..."</font id=red>
He goes on to say: <font color=red>"...Handloading is essential to get any range out of the .44 mag, and equally essential if the cartridge is to be used on game larger than deer or smallish black bears."</font id=red>
This statement alone points me back to the original question by Normercy that a .44mag used as a "charge stopping knock 'em dead gun" isn't really such a great gun for that particular purpose. Especially if the bear is say over 200lbs!
He goes on to say: <font color=red>"...you can even get the .44 barely up into elk country, at very short range. But it's no dragonslayer, and must never be considered such. It is a very fine little cartridge-but even at its very best, it is not the equal of the .30-30 Winchester. Users of it, whether in rifle or pistol, simply must keep that in mind."</font id=red>
This is what he says about the .30-30 on pages 102-105:
<font color=red>"...170-grain bullet delivering 2,200 fps and 1,827 foot/pounds...energy figures fall below 1,000 foot/pounds before you reach 200 yards..."</font id=red>
That point alone is better than a .44mag which falls under 1000 ft/lbs under 100 yards! He compares the .44mag at 100 yards with the .30-30 at a 100 yards by saying:
<font color=red>Within 100 yards-the distance most game is taken with this caliber</font id=red> (30-30) <font color=red> it will offer up to 1,500 foot/pounds of energy, which is more than enough.</font id=red>
I must add that his opinion is that any cartridge used for big game must have a minimum of 1000 foot pounds of energy at 100 yards to cleanly kill the game. Obviously the 30-30 beats the .44mag in this spectrum.
He adds on page 104: <font color=red>"...The very nature of the .30-30 bullet is also important...only extremely blunt round-nose bullets or, better, flat-points, are suitable...but I think it's a partial explanation of why the .30-30 seems to hit very hard on game despite unimpressive energy and velocity."</font id=red>
He does say, <font color=red>"It's also a bit underpowered for the LARGEST of black bears..."</font id=red>
He does explain that the .30-30 has a slight advantange over the .44mag due to velocity and almost double the ft/lbs of energy at over 100 yards when compared to a .44mag.
I think Boddington knows what he's talking about.
ths 78....Without going into another long chapter,,,I think a 30-06 blows any .44mag out of the water PERIOD. I'll take a handloaded 220grain 30-06 bullet or even a 180grain Swift A-frame or Nosler partition over any of the best .44mag bullets bar-none! No comparison between the two when it comes to energy, velocity, penetration, hydrostatic shock capabilities and documented incidents on large and/or dangerous game and all around performance etc...
Edited by - Hk45USP on 03/04/2002 16:03:12
03-04-2002, 09:33 PM
#13
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Little Egg harbor NJ
Posts: 1,279
RE: .44 mag for bear.
HK45usp, Well I HAD respect for Craig B If He really states this. If he really did he is an IDIOT. He has no clue as to what the 44 mag can do. First of all the 240 at 1700+ fps can be done in a ruger super redhawk. Easily done that is. So a rifle that is chambered for the 44 mag can do emensily more than that. A handgun can push a 335 gr bullet to 1385 fps ruger super redhawk that is. This will flatten any grizzley that walks with a proper shot placement. IF I was in a bad situation and I had a 30-30 or a 44 mag with the 335 gr hardcast bullet at 1385fps I want the 44 any day of the week and twice on sunday. I am not try to say that the 44 mag will be better at 200 yards no way it wont but up to 100- 150 yards I take the 44 mag in a rifle and never look back. The 44 mag is easily a elk gun moose gun bear gun and most of africa gun. With the right bullet the 44 mag wins hands down in a rifle. The 30-30 only wins way out there like 200 + yards. You could probable get a 300gr bullet out of a 44 mag rifle to about 1800-1900 fps with no problem. that will give you performance of 1000 foot pounds of energy way out past 100yards.
Its hard to believe Craig B said this and I have lost all respect for him if this is true.
Brian
Its hard to believe Craig B said this and I have lost all respect for him if this is true.
Brian
03-04-2002, 10:19 PM
#14
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Los Angeles CA USA
Posts: 192
RE: .44 mag for bear.
445 Supermag....I'm not joking. Buy his book. Here is the ISBN number if you're interested to order it at any book store: 1-57157-223-6.
Why would you loose repect for the guy. Im sure he has 10X the experience in guns/bullets than you and I put together. If that statement isn't true, then why is it that you nor me are in his shoes, writing books ourselves??? Answer: Because we don't know squat compared to his experience and would never qualify as "experts" like he does. Just my humble opinion.
Don't get me wrong, I love my .44mag Winchester lever action carbine. I'd use it on black bear in a heart beat. But not on a charging bear, nor would I ever dare to use it on big African game like you mentioned. Im sure it could be done, but I don'have b@lls of steel to face one of those animals with a .44mag handgun. I'm not that good of a shot under pressure.
Why would you loose repect for the guy. Im sure he has 10X the experience in guns/bullets than you and I put together. If that statement isn't true, then why is it that you nor me are in his shoes, writing books ourselves??? Answer: Because we don't know squat compared to his experience and would never qualify as "experts" like he does. Just my humble opinion.
Don't get me wrong, I love my .44mag Winchester lever action carbine. I'd use it on black bear in a heart beat. But not on a charging bear, nor would I ever dare to use it on big African game like you mentioned. Im sure it could be done, but I don'have b@lls of steel to face one of those animals with a .44mag handgun. I'm not that good of a shot under pressure.
03-04-2002, 11:10 PM
#15
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Little Egg harbor NJ
Posts: 1,279
RE: .44 mag for bear.
I am just saying that the loads he stated can be done in a handgun. And way surpassed in a rifle. YOu should now since you have the 44 mag rifle that you can way outdo what he states like the 240 at 1700+ fps. that is a handgun load that is it NOT a rifle load. That can be way out done in a carbine. I am just saying that he must not have all the facts if he is saying that he can get a 240 gr bullet to 1770+ fps and that is it. The carbine can way outdo it and out do the 30-30 up to 100-150 yards. I would and I don't care about what he states because it is just not all the facts. this must be old time loadings or just factory loads because they can be way out done now. Hey I love my 445 supermag and love handguns for hunting period. I am not the most knowledgeable person in the world but I know what the 44 mag can do in a handgun and rifle and what he stated is bull dinkel. He is not even close to what the 44 mag can do now a days.
Brian
Brian
03-05-2002, 07:30 AM
#16
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Brasher Falls New York USA
Posts: 1
RE: .44 mag for bear.
<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote<font size=1 face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
the 30-30 winchester being better for black bears than the 44 mag was a joke right? If not is sounds like it is. I would take it over the 30-30 any day of the week and twice on sundays
brian
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2 id=quote>
the 30-30 winchester being better for black bears than the 44 mag was a joke right? If not is sounds like it is. I would take it over the 30-30 any day of the week and twice on sundays
brian
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2 id=quote>
03-05-2002, 01:43 PM
#17
Fork Horn
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location:
Posts: 316
RE: .44 mag for bear.
You have a great memory Quilly...I don't write about my Ruger Deerfield Carbine very often, but it is a great gun. I use the Winchester 250 gr. Partition in it for black bear, and it will roll a 500 lb. boar over with one shot at 125 yds.! Been there, done that!
I use the Winchester Super X 300 gr. JHP in my 45-70 for black bear. This is a 200 yd. black bear round.
HK45 USP:
A 30-06 bullet is .308 calliber and when it expands in game, it reaches about 45 calliber. A 44 Magnum is .429 calliber, and obviously hard cast bullets will not expand at all. Both will shoot through an elk broadside out to 150 yds. But due to bullet weight and original diameter, the 300 gr. 44 mag loads hit harder than 180 gr. 30-06 loads. You are correct however when you say a 220 gr. handloaded 30-06 bullet is better for elk. I was referring to the 150 and 180 gr. weights with my earlier post. I too feel the 30-06 is a better all-around rifle, I was just trying to prove that the 44 mag. rifle is underrated and is great for all North American game inside of 150 yds. when loaded with the correct ammunition.
I use the Winchester Super X 300 gr. JHP in my 45-70 for black bear. This is a 200 yd. black bear round.
HK45 USP:
A 30-06 bullet is .308 calliber and when it expands in game, it reaches about 45 calliber. A 44 Magnum is .429 calliber, and obviously hard cast bullets will not expand at all. Both will shoot through an elk broadside out to 150 yds. But due to bullet weight and original diameter, the 300 gr. 44 mag loads hit harder than 180 gr. 30-06 loads. You are correct however when you say a 220 gr. handloaded 30-06 bullet is better for elk. I was referring to the 150 and 180 gr. weights with my earlier post. I too feel the 30-06 is a better all-around rifle, I was just trying to prove that the 44 mag. rifle is underrated and is great for all North American game inside of 150 yds. when loaded with the correct ammunition.
03-05-2002, 03:21 PM
#18
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Los Angeles CA USA
Posts: 192
RE: .44 mag for bear.
I guess with the newer loadings for the .44mag, it can do some marvelous things. Which makes me wonder, I take it that a .444 Marlin or the .45.70 can do triple and quadruple the damage/performance that any .44 Rem mag can do, right? Longer case for the above mentioned cartridges equals more powder, creating better performance???
Question here for you guys that know much about the .44mag...(I know I don't know that much about the better bullets of today.) If I use my Winchester .44mag carbine lever action, will it hurt the gun, using some of the hard cast, big and powerful newer loads some of you guys mentioned here? I'd love to shoot something over 300 grains, but I don't want to put a harsh pounding on the gun. Also, with the heavier bullets, doesn't a person loose velocity and perhaps over all power? I'm guessing that with the heavier the bullet, the smaller volume of powder in the case because of the bigger size bullet takes up more space for smokeless powder. Doesn't that make sense?
I thought one could only put in so much powder and the bigger the bullet gets, the less powder it has to keep the velocity up.
Oh, Boddington's book was published in 1995 so you guys are correct about being some old data. The book was written 7 years ago and I do know that bullet technology has improved since then too. Maybe today Boddington would feel different about the .44mag vs. 30-30 debate.
Thanks for the "411" guys. -Hk.
Question here for you guys that know much about the .44mag...(I know I don't know that much about the better bullets of today.) If I use my Winchester .44mag carbine lever action, will it hurt the gun, using some of the hard cast, big and powerful newer loads some of you guys mentioned here? I'd love to shoot something over 300 grains, but I don't want to put a harsh pounding on the gun. Also, with the heavier bullets, doesn't a person loose velocity and perhaps over all power? I'm guessing that with the heavier the bullet, the smaller volume of powder in the case because of the bigger size bullet takes up more space for smokeless powder. Doesn't that make sense?
I thought one could only put in so much powder and the bigger the bullet gets, the less powder it has to keep the velocity up.
Oh, Boddington's book was published in 1995 so you guys are correct about being some old data. The book was written 7 years ago and I do know that bullet technology has improved since then too. Maybe today Boddington would feel different about the .44mag vs. 30-30 debate.
Thanks for the "411" guys. -Hk.
03-06-2002, 01:43 AM
#19
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Little Egg harbor NJ
Posts: 1,279
RE: .44 mag for bear.
ths78 the 44 mag is a great performer on big game isn't it!
HK45usp These days with the 44 mag YOu can really put a pounding on something out there. It is truly a great big game gun and round inside 150 yards.
If you use heavy hard cast bullets you will have better retained energy at longer ranges. The lighter ones start great out of the gate but start to lack at farther ranges. The big heavy ones will penetrate better farther out.
brian
HK45usp These days with the 44 mag YOu can really put a pounding on something out there. It is truly a great big game gun and round inside 150 yards.
If you use heavy hard cast bullets you will have better retained energy at longer ranges. The lighter ones start great out of the gate but start to lack at farther ranges. The big heavy ones will penetrate better farther out.
brian
03-06-2002, 06:37 AM
#20
Fork Horn
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location:
Posts: 316
RE: .44 mag for bear.
HK45 USP,
Your winchester carbine should handle the new and improved 44 ammo just fine. And usually, with heavier bullets, the overall length of the round is longer, as they don't seat it any deeper. Therefore, you get just as much powder behind it. The key to hunting large game with the 44 Mag is to be sure and use heavy, hard cast bullets. At 150 yds, these bullets only retain about 850 lbs. of energy, but they penetrate very well, leave a large wound channel, and do extensive amounts of damage. High velocity bullets usually kill game by sending a huge shockwave through the body. This destroys the nervous system, and any organs it hits. A 44 mag simply punches a large hole through whatever it encounter and causes a lot of bleeding.
I have never used a 444, but my 45-70 will kill any animal on earth.
Your winchester carbine should handle the new and improved 44 ammo just fine. And usually, with heavier bullets, the overall length of the round is longer, as they don't seat it any deeper. Therefore, you get just as much powder behind it. The key to hunting large game with the 44 Mag is to be sure and use heavy, hard cast bullets. At 150 yds, these bullets only retain about 850 lbs. of energy, but they penetrate very well, leave a large wound channel, and do extensive amounts of damage. High velocity bullets usually kill game by sending a huge shockwave through the body. This destroys the nervous system, and any organs it hits. A 44 mag simply punches a large hole through whatever it encounter and causes a lot of bleeding.
I have never used a 444, but my 45-70 will kill any animal on earth.
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