Grizzlybear

rather_be_huntin-

Agreed- well said. BUT, practically, the percentage of people who need to take animals for survival is such a small fraction of those who typically violate game laws. Heck, let' s face it - very few people NEED to hunt in the first place.

krombig

Exactly. Although there aren' t many who need to hunt to survive, there still are those few. To pretend those needy people don' t exist is just rediculous. You hit it right on the button, Grizzly.

The fact is, they ARE a small fraction. Only a minuscule amount of game is taken for such purposes, so why is it such the big deal people make it out to be?

BeaverJack

Mos' people who hunt for survival choose to live like that. They escape out here, live in a shack, an' figure the world owes ' em a livin' . I got no use for the unibomber-type survivalists, an' don' t think they deserve to poach for their own choices. Now, how many " surviving" families do we tolerate before we say no mas? Remember, all the game in Kentucky was once wiped out by " hungry" people. Round here, we cain' t get people to take unskilled labor jobs and have to have a healthy influx of immigrant mexicans to do the hard work. Yet, we still got your " survivalists" in their shacks that somehow deserve to take game illegally? I don' t think so.

elknut1

It seems to me, most of you don' t get the big picture here.
Yes there are folks (not hunters) who poach, no matter the season or they may even be tagless, they don' t care! Some are caught, most aren' t, for fun or survival, it don' t matter. These folks are a drop in the bucket when it comes to depleting game herds, no matter where you live. Like mentioned before, the real blow to game herds comes from hunters who fill their spouses, kids or friends tags. These numbers are in the millions each year, so if one wants to focus on the real threat, your energies should concentrate in this area.
Example-- Theirs a doe season, everybody and their brother has a tag, dad goes out and shoots 4 or 5, one for him and the rest for wife and kids, yes he has tags, but do you think most wife or kids would' ve really filled their tags, probably not. Same goes for elk, it' s a vicious cycle. There' s no stopping it, no matter how much we all belly ache over it. So you may want to cry and moan over the ole boy that takes a trophy illegally, but they' re far and few in between compared to what the everyday hunter gets away with. Just ask Fish&Game where the real threat is, they' ll tell you. I don' t condone anykind of poaching, but at the same time I won' t be losing any sleep over it either. I ain' t going to get political about it. elknut1

BeaverJack

I don' t agree that its insignificant. Its exact level is unknown, but it is significant. Again, ask a G&F officer. With the moose herd declining and road mortality increasing due to residential development and gas field growth, 3 moose is significant. If you don' t want to look at it from a ethical standpoint, consider that moose tag availability is based on calf numbers. Every loss in calf production affects chances hunters have at drawing a tag. With increased pressures from drought and road traffic, the impact of poaching is one of growing significance worthy of losing sleep over.

rather_be_huntin

I don' t think we' re missing the big picture here elknut1, the topic was poaching.

But you do bring up a great point. When f&g determines how many tags they issue they take into account success rates. If everyone got the animal they had a tag for the herds would be gone in a few years. Party hunting is illegal for that reason.

You might be right that party hunting has a significant effect on the herd but at least that can be regulated a little bit. Meaning if many people party hunt this year in a certain area then in sound management next year tag numbers should be down due to a low census count in that area. But I' m not trying to take away from the seriousness of party hunting, its still a negative and illegal deal.

I do think poaching has more than a drop in the bucket effect on herds. In the Book Cliffs area in Eastern Utah a poaching ring was just brought down. A taxidermist in Colorado was paying some kids $50 a head for trophy muleys. These kids admitted shooting close to 100 trophy class deer in the last 3 years. Thats almost the SAME AMOUNT OF TAGS DRAWN in those 3 years for that unit. Thats 100 trophy class deer that a person who averages 12 years to draw that unit no longer gets to hunt.

sawbill

In most cases the tags alloted for a given hunt are determined by the population or health of the herd. This can be determined in many ways but indeed, the calf or fawn numbers of that year is a significant criteria for the subsequent allottment. Calf or fawn reproduction is affected by a number of issues, available food for the adults, health of does or cows at the breeding times, severity of the ensuing winter, those kind of factors. Also taken into consideration is the hunter success, accesssability and habitat loss through logging or fires. Currently, habitat loss is the greatest threat to healthy populations. With this you have increased access from logging or fire roads, and you have a hunter that is more mobile with ATV' s and snowmobiles.
Party hunting, where allowed, is taken into account when the tag allotment is figured out. And when the allotment is figured out, the projected hunter success is also factored in.
Now, throw in the animals taken by natives, or metis, road kills or train kills, all of which are significant. This leaves very little area allowed for the indiscriminate taking of animals through poaching. And although the only excuse ever to poach would be the absolute need for food, this would still be a rare case in todays society. One huge cause of poaching now is a hunters frustration at never getting a tag. This is one area that game managers and biologists must struggle with even though it is in reality, an enforcement issue, not a biological issue.

elknut1

Rather-B

You make some good points, ones that are indusputable, and I agree with what you' re saying. Mainly I was referring to " General Seasons" not draw situations, which is what I' m accustomed to here in Idaho. These doe or elk seasons are usually general hunts, and yes guys buy all sorts of tags and try and fill them.

Unbelievable what some folks will stoop to, to make a buck, hard to understand what goes through a persons mind to involve kids in their illegal dirty work. There should be special punishment and fines that fits this type of crime. elknut1