magnum vs 308 or 270 or 30-06
01-03-2008, 06:49 PM
#21
Typical Buck
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Denver, Colorado
Posts: 599
RE: magnum vs 308 or 270 or 30-06
"....Use x bullet in a .308 and x bullet in a .300 mag and the .308 will out penetrate the .300mag because x bullet wasnt designed for 3000+ velocities and just explodes. So you put Y bullet into the .300 mag and it now expands and penetrates like x bullet in the .308, so your now right back to where we started...."
01-03-2008, 08:16 PM
#22
Spike
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location:
Posts: 68
RE: magnum vs 308 or 270 or 30-06
http://www.rathcoombe.net/sci-tech/ballistics/wounding.html
Check this research out. More than all this shoot from the hip authority garbage.
Check this research out. More than all this shoot from the hip authority garbage.
01-03-2008, 08:58 PM
#23
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Texas
Posts: 2,695
RE: magnum vs 308 or 270 or 30-06
I have seen that before, and yes its a good read, notice the penetration tests, the 30-06 had 26" penetration with the failsafe, more than any gun in that category other than the 375 hh with a 300 gr bullet.
Whats the point of a magnum if a standard caliber offers the same performance ( penetration and expansion ) with a standard cup and core bullet as a magnum does with a hard cast bullet.
Whats the point of a magnum if a standard caliber offers the same performance ( penetration and expansion ) with a standard cup and core bullet as a magnum does with a hard cast bullet.
01-04-2008, 07:37 AM
#24
Typical Buck
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: PUEBLO, CO, USA
Posts: 636
RE: magnum vs 308 or 270 or 30-06
The wsm stuff is all over rated, it dont do anything the mfrs said it would on those cals and ammos sales is falling off.
The 30-06 will do everything up to elephant, use 180 or 220 for grizz. Ammos sales tell the tale...30-06 and 270 and 308 is always on top. Teens and women here kill tons of elk with 243. So its all a choice thing. I like std cals for the cheap ammo thats available. 300 WinMAg is a good choice. I use 7mm RemMag for everything cause I like my 26" barrel, tho I have 30-06s and 270 and 243 and 223.
Good luck.
The 30-06 will do everything up to elephant, use 180 or 220 for grizz. Ammos sales tell the tale...30-06 and 270 and 308 is always on top. Teens and women here kill tons of elk with 243. So its all a choice thing. I like std cals for the cheap ammo thats available. 300 WinMAg is a good choice. I use 7mm RemMag for everything cause I like my 26" barrel, tho I have 30-06s and 270 and 243 and 223.
Good luck.
01-04-2008, 08:30 AM
#25
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Missouri
Posts: 1,429
RE: magnum vs 308 or 270 or 30-06
ORIGINAL: rbullom
http://www.rathcoombe.net/sci-tech/ballistics/wounding.html
Check this research out. More than all this shoot from the hip authority garbage.
http://www.rathcoombe.net/sci-tech/ballistics/wounding.html
Check this research out. More than all this shoot from the hip authority garbage.
He sure doestalk alot.
01-04-2008, 10:45 AM
#26
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Lubbock, Texas
Posts: 1,401
RE: magnum vs 308 or 270 or 30-06
ORIGINAL: rbullom
http://www.rathcoombe.net/sci-tech/ballistics/wounding.html
Check this research out. More than all this shoot from the hip authority garbage.
http://www.rathcoombe.net/sci-tech/ballistics/wounding.html
Check this research out. More than all this shoot from the hip authority garbage.
Figure 4 illustrates the sort of results that you will get for this model at three representative velocities when parameters appropriate for a bullet of conventional design and metallurgy is modeled. As we noted in the wetpack testing, the penetration depth varies over a surprisingly narrow range. Also note the very large expansion of the wound and rapid termination.
Figure 5 shows a similar plot, this time for a bullet with a heavier jacket, but otherwise identical design features. It achieves slightly more penetration at typical velocities, but significantly greater penetration and appreciably reduced maximum wound diameter as the velocity approaches the minimum upset velocity. This is the sort of traditional soft copper and lead design that performs so well in classic cartridges of modest velocity. You can most clearly see that penetration steadily decreases with increasing impact velocity in this plot.
This plot (Figure 6) is representative of the sort of behavior that you would see with a more modern jacketed bullet of complex design and metallurgy. It has a thin, tapered jacket at the tip for rapid expansion, but rapidly thickens to limit expansion. Additionally, it can only deform to a fixed length and the expanded diameter is well supported, so that it maintains a larger wound profile at depth in the target. Also note how closely the three velocities match in total penetration. You can't see the lowest velocity, but all three are in a very narrow range. By tuning the jacket thickness and metallugy one can move the depth at which the maximum expansion occurs and also control the diameter of that expansion. Although it is obscured, in this data the penetration is deepest in the middle range of impact velocity, consistent with most tests of controlled expansion bullets.
Finally, in Figure 7, we have the classic behavior of a monolithic style of bullet (eg, the Barnes X-Bullet). It achieves the greatest depth of penetration and exhibits the narrowest, most nearly uniformly tapering wound profile. This class of bullet reminds me very much of the most advanced form of shaped charge now in existence in its economy of penetration. Here the penetration depth is greater at the lower and higher impact velocities, as we see in testing.
From here down it is me talking.
To further help some folks out the 3 speeds shown are 650 m/s = 2,132 ft/sec; 750 m/s = 2,461 ft/sec; 850 m/s = 2,789 ft/sec. These are the speeds at impact.
Here are some common velocities shooting Barnes TSX bullets.
30-06 - 180 gr - Muzzle - 2,700; 100 yards - 2,504 fps; 300 yards - 2,137; 400 yards - 1,965
7mm Rem Mag- 160 gr - Muzzle - 2,940; 100 yards - 2,755; 300 yards - 2,407; 400 yards - 2,243
.300 Rem Ultra Mag - 180 gr - Muzzle - 3,150; 100 yards - 2,933; 300 yards - 2,529; 400 yards 2,341
Even with the .300 Rem Ultra Mag you have to be pretty close to get to that top velocity on the graphs. The big difference is out at the 300 and 400 yard marks.
The other important thing to note is what matter the bullet expansion is based on. I would assume that hitting a bone would throw all the pretty graphs out the window.
01-04-2008, 11:36 AM
#27
Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location:
Posts: 591
RE: magnum vs 308 or 270 or 30-06
I don't think magnum shooters should bash standard shooters and vice versa. This time it was a standard shooter bashing magnums, just because somebody didn't load up with the right bullets. Next time it will be a magnum shooter sayinga 110gr270 bullet blew up at 30 yards on an elk (Iknow the 270 must be a POS)andhis 300 mag with a 165grbarnesdropped an elkat 500 with no problem (I know the 300 mag must be the best thing ever).
If the price is right I wouldn't really care if I ended up with a standard or magnum rifle.
If the price is right I wouldn't really care if I ended up with a standard or magnum rifle.
01-04-2008, 09:29 PM
#28
Typical Buck
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Denver, Colorado
Posts: 599
RE: magnum vs 308 or 270 or 30-06
"....I don't think magnum shooters should bash standard shooters and vice versa...."
Standard shooters?
I didn't know they were mutually exclusive of each other, what about those that own and usea healthy dose of both? Logically they are the most objective.
I know some stout non-magnum cartridges.... 45-70, 416 Rigby, 458 Lott just to name three so the magnum vs. non-magnum thing really rings hollow.
Just match the size and power levelof thecartridge to the size of the job at hand, it ain't that hard.
Even the great JOC considered the 270 to be the ultimate deer/sheep rifle and admitted to the more versatile nature of the 30-06 for larger game. He had a vested interest in making it work for a myriad of other larger game; however, this contradicted his earlier statements about moose and elk rifles prior to him ranging out of his stomping grounds in the desert Southwest. A gun rag writer tends to have to stake his niche and then defend it against all comers to keep the paychecks coming in. (JOC did carry a 416 Rigby for the bigger stuff in Africa though.... there ya go Jack!)
If you haven't experienced the difference in taking elk with the "just get by stuff" (sub-30-06 power)versus the thumpers, then you can't fully appreciate the difference upon the animal upon impact. And don't bore me with the accuracy crap.... 7mmRemMags, 300WinMags, 338WinMags, etc. just don't kick enough to talk about assuming you know how to shoot (more than just pulling the trigger). Someone that can't hit with a baby mag is likely to be a lousy shot with about anything. Too many folks gotso few sticks in the closet andso little spread in theircartridge spacing that they have to blindly defend whatever it isthey got whether it is a good, reliable, consistent, overalltaker of that game category or not.
This fall, two elk fell to my 375 H&H, one shot each, neither took a second step.... didn't hear the shot nor feel the recoil on either one, didn't practice much prior to the season other than about 30 rounds tuning the scope to a gnat's ass for the new Federal Cape-Shok rounds. Took a 14 year old girl elk hunting a few years ago, she could not have weighed over a buck ten, she used a 30-06 and took her first elk with it no problem.
Just match the tool to the job for the best, most consistent results.... it just ain't that hard.
01-05-2008, 09:14 AM
#29
Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location:
Posts: 591
RE: magnum vs 308 or 270 or 30-06
ORIGINAL: EKM
Magnum shooters?
Standard shooters?
I didn't know they were mutually exclusive of each other, what about those that own and usea healthy dose of both? Logically they are the most objective.
I know some stout non-magnum cartridges.... 45-70, 416 Rigby, 458 Lott just to name three so the magnum vs. non-magnum thing really rings hollow.
Magnum shooters?
Standard shooters?
I didn't know they were mutually exclusive of each other, what about those that own and usea healthy dose of both? Logically they are the most objective.
I know some stout non-magnum cartridges.... 45-70, 416 Rigby, 458 Lott just to name three so the magnum vs. non-magnum thing really rings hollow.
01-05-2008, 01:21 PM
#30
Typical Buck
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Denver, Colorado
Posts: 599
RE: magnum vs 308 or 270 or 30-06
Yeah, the specifics of the facts can be a bit problematic for generalists who eschew getting down to the details and just like to kinda"broad-brush-stroke-over-everything."